Friday, August 6, 2010

Proposition 8

Surprise, surprise. Calvin has something controversial to say. That's right. I'm about ready to talk about something that you have a strong opinion about. I'm not sure what your opinion is, but I'm sure it's a strong one.

First let me start out by saying two things. First, I love everyone (except for my stupid co-worker initials B.S. coinidentally. He's an idiot and I hope he gets hurt really bad and ends up with a nasty scar). Even if we disagree, I still love you. Second, I'm perfectly able and willing to recognize that all of my feelings toward you... be it 'shock', 'amazement', 'frustration', 'anger', etc... are mostly likely felt by you... toward me. I know. I know. As bad I want you to agree with everything I say, I understand that you want me to agree with everything you say. I just want you to know that I understand that concept before I delve into the meat of this post.

Jake doesn't like it when we talk politics on this blog, Twitter, or Facebook. Mostly because he's afraid that a lot of people might assume that he and I are on the same page... but that is seldom the case with stuff like this. Jake has an opinion about gay marriage, but it isn't as strong as mine and he isn't even close to as passionate about it as I am (tee hee... I said "gay marriage" and "passionate" in the same sentence).

So a couple of days ago I found out that Proposition 8 was overturned in California. I wasn't surprised to see a lot of my non-Mormon friends celebrating this fact. It was truly a landmark occasion. I honestly believe that. However... just because it's a "landmark" occasion doesn't always make it a good occasion. I was watching everyone celebrating and expressing their joy at the judges ruling. Good for you, guys. Good for you.

I was shocked, however, at how many of my Mormon friends and acquaintances were also expressing their enthusiasm over the ruling. I couldn't believe it. 'Surprised' is an understatement. I was utterly shocked. I thought there might be a few, but I was astounded at how many people were happy about Prop 8 being overturned.

Now, I could go on for pages and pages about my opinion, but I don't have the time or the energy so I'm going to try to be as brief as possible as I communicate my feelings over the last few days.

"Finally, the State of California is doing the right thing." Actually, no. The people of California voted twice and both times voted against allowing gays to marry. ONE SINGLE JUDGE overturned the ruling. Not the State of California.

"I'm just happy that people born gay will be able to get married." Born gay? So if a person is born with gay tendencies, that makes it ok? Cause there are people born every day with tendencies toward a myriad of sins, but we're taught that the natural man is an enemy to God. We should always be trying to overcome temptation to sin. It's unfortunate that some gay people are attracted to their own gender, but that doesn't mean it's not a sin to engage in that type of behavior.

"As long as it doesn't affect me, let them do what they want." So what happens if gays are allowed to marry? Won't school teachers be forced to include gay relationships as legally accepted forms of marriage in classrooms? During the sex-ed talk in 5th grade, are they going to start including gay butt sex? I mean, it's legal and socially acceptable now, right? They should probably talk about it so our 11-year-old's are completely clear on that kind of stuff.

"Okay... but other than that, it doesn't affect me." For arguments sake, let's pretend that they legalized gay marriage today. Then tomorrow two gay men approach their Mormon bishop and request to get married. The bishop doesn't agree with gay marriage so he refuses to perform the ceremony. Those two gay men can now sue the church for discrimination. A person who has the power to marry two people has been accused of discriminating against a gay couple. You don't think that affects you?

"Gays being allowed to get married is inevitable. What's the point in trying to stop it?" I actually agree that gay marriage will eventually be legal in the entire country and possibly the entire world. But just because I think it's probably going to happen doesn't mean it's okay for me to sit back and let it happen. It's my responsibility to do everything in my power to stop it.

"I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of this." Maybe it's because some of us are afraid that legalizing gay marriage will open the door to other types of things.

"You're not gonna talk about humans trying to marry animals are you?" No. I'm not. I don't think that hypothetical argument is very feasible. I will, however, mention that polygamy or maybe adult siblings wanting to get married is extremely likely to come up as a result of legalizing gay marriage. In both of those examples we have consenting adults wanting to marry each other. Why would we allow two guys to get married, but not a brother and a sister?

"Because that's just gross. And they'd have deformed kids." What if they could prove they were unable to reproduce and they only wanted to get married because they loved each other dearly and wanted all the rights that come with marriage?

"Now you're just being stupid." I have a feeling that 2o years from now when the world is comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah, we're gonna look back at gay marriage and think, 'That's where it all started'.

"But forcing gay people to live the same morals as we do sounds a lot like Satan's plan. Didn't he try to force everyone to obey the commandments? We can't take away their agency." So... why do we have any laws then? If murdering someone is against the law, then we're taking away their freedom to do what they want, right? Of course not. People still have the agency to do what they want... it's just that we impose certain consequences on those actions. Not allowing gay people to get married isn't taking away anyone's agency.

"Yes it is. It's taking away their right to marry a member of the same sex." Well, I don't have that right, either. A gay man can't marry another man... and neither can I. So really, what gay people are requesting are additional rights. They want a right that I don't have.

"But us Mormons believe that unless it's a temple marriage, it's not a 'real' marriage anyway (as in, not for time and all eternity). So what's the difference between a marriage outside the temple vs a gay marriage?" A man and woman marrying outside the temple still have the option available to them in this life or the next, to accept the Gospel and spend eternity together. Two men will never have that same opportunity. Ever. Two men will never be able to be sealed for time and eternity. Ever. No matter what.

"How can you say that? At one point in Mormon history, God didn't allow blacks to hold the Priesthood. I'm sure back then, some ignorant Mormon said the same thing about blacks never ever ever being allowed to have the Priesthood. And today... they have it." Are you honestly trying to tell me that at some point in the future, God is going to allow two gay men to co-habitate in the Celestial Kingdom and create worlds together? I'm assuming you think they'll just be allowed to spiritually adopt spirit children from the heterosexual couples chillin' with them in the CK.

"I think that gay couples deserve to be happy. If they want to adopt and raise children, I think they should be able to." You think they should be able to raise a child in a homosexual environment as long as it makes them happy? Does the welfare of the child come into play at all in your mind or are you only concerned about what make gay couples happy?

"What do you mean 'welfare of the child'? There are thousands of heterosexual couples who are horrible, abusive, neglectful parents. If gay couples provide loving environments for children, that's all that matters." You can't compare the best possible gay marriage to the worst possible hetero marriage. That's not fair. Let's look at it this way: If you had a child you were putting up for adoption and you had it narrowed down to two couples, one straight and one gay, which would you choose?

"That depends on a whole lot of other things." Let's pretend you could see into the future and you knew that both couples would provide an equally loving home for 50 years. I'm asking you straight out which couple you would choose to care for your child.

"Fine. Fine. I'd choose the straight couple." Did you choose the straight couple because you don't want your kid to get made fun of at school or do you honestly believe that the best environment for raising a well-rounded child is in a home with a father and a mother?

"All I know is that I think the Mormon church leaders were wrong when they didn't let blacks have the Priesthood and I think they're also wrong about this." So what your saying is that you're planning on disagreeing with the Proclamation to the Family and our First Presidency including the Prophet of God because you think at some point down the road, they're all gonna change their minds. If they changed their minds once (ie blacks and the priesthood) then they might do it again... so you're gonna go in the complete opposite direction of the Mormon Church and it's counsel.

"The Church isn't allowed to tell me how to vote. I'm super pissed that the Church has chosen to become so involved in this obviously political issue." Sure. Gay marriage is a political issue. And I recognize that churches aren't allowed to tell it's members how to vote or else they'll lose their tax exempt status. But the Church isn't doing that... no matter how bad you want to blame the Church for disagreeing with you... they aren't doing anything they're not supposed to do. They are simply expressing their opinion and reiterating their (our) beliefs. Don't you remember how often we are counseled by our church leader to "vote with your conscience"? Just because a church says, "Marriage between a man and woman is the bedrock of society." doesn't mean they are telling their members how to vote. Get over it! If you feel guilty about voting against the church, that's your problem. Quite blaming the church for reminding you about your own beliefs. Stand up for yourself. Own up to it. Admit that you think our church leaders are old-fashioned hypocrites who need to get with the times and start being more accepting of the sins of others.

That is all. Have a great day.

Calvin

Next Week: The Myth of Global Warming

106 comments:

Nikita said...

"Myth" of global warming???? I definitely want to read that one too...

Anonymous said...

but the lds church has told it's members how to vote, and formed coalitions with the direct purpose of voting for prop 8- watch 8: The Mormon Proposition and you will get the full story, complete with documents to prove. yes the documentary is biased, but it's just sad to see how the church has thoroughly brainwashed it's members to believe certain things and spit them back out- even though you may believe you are protecting something by fighting against this issue, what gives you the right to tell someone the life they are living is wrong

RIP Pluto said...

got one about dinosaurs? cuz this triceratops thing is killing me :(

Anonymous said...

I only got through half of your post of pure crap and was reminded why I left the Church.

Me said...

Well put. Amen.

Rebecca said...

I love you! You hit every argument (and then some!) with logic and a well written response. I want to print this and carry it around with me! Normally I hate people who comment just to comment (and use lots of exclamation points), but you did such a great post, I had to say, Well done!

Kari Anne said...

Love it...completly agree with you Calvin!

Connor Schone said...

you are the man. I agree wholeheartedly with this post and that global warming is a myth. Take that Al Gore!

Melissa said...

The bottom line is California vote twice against gay marriage. It is horrible that a judge overturned the decision of the people once but twice. Even if you agree with gay marriage, I don't, that has got to be a scary thing. A judge can change the ruling of anything by saying it is unconditional. Nice going Calvin for this awesome post.

ps They can't call it global warming because they can't prove the overall temperature of the world in increasing. Haha. The correct term is "climate change".

Sam, The Nanti-SARRMM said...

We're allowed to comment now?

I agree with you on some of the aspects, especially with going against the church. When hearing about LDS people who support it, they do so not because they have earnestly prayed about it to know what Church leaders are saying is true (as far as I am aware) and more deciding on logic, on not wanting to seem hateful. Because of public opinion.

That said, I have some remarks to what you said.
Won't school teachers be forced to include gay relationships as legally accepted forms of marriage in classrooms? Since when is marriage taught in the classroom though? I don't remember any classes teaching that man and woman marry. As far as Sex-Ed goes, they should go into butt sex I think. Maybe not at the 5th grade level, but honestly if Anal is socially acceptable, the school system should point out that some people like to stick their wanker where someone else's crap comes out. Cause just saying that and looking into what diseases come of that should be told in school.

As far as suing the church for discrimination; what if when gay marriage was allowed, there was a provision in the law that exempts churchs from having to perform same sex marriage? So that way the LDS church and other churches can practice marriage as they desire?

As far as rights go, my issue is more on how being joined under the word 'marriage' is considered a right and how the Judge's ruling takes it from being a state issue to a federal issue now.

As far as the Church and blacks having the priesthood, that is entirely different and cannot be compared, because some blacks were given the priesthood when Joseph Smith was alive.

As for me, I am on the fence. Cause the Church says it approves of civil unions that grant or allow the same legal rights of marriage. So my issue is that if the Church approves of Civil unions that grant the same legal rights as marriage, what is so special about the word 'marriage' to withhold it from same gendered couples when they're already living a married life anyways? That is where I am confused.

Anonymous said...

Calvin, will you marry me?

Anonymous said...

I have never left a comment before but I would like to thank you Calvin for saying all of this. You were right on point and more people need to be told this.

Ashlee said...

I think you're great!!

Way to defend your points in an intelligent non-confrontational way! (some of the Morman stuff is over my head) but the rest was great!

And the real reason I'm posting, I hope you aren't kidding about the Myth of Global Warming because that is by far my favorite controversial subject!! It's so obviously a made up phenomenon, and if you post about it you'll far out weigh silly Jake's awesomeness (at least in my mind)

Molly said...

Pretty sure God never "changed his mind" and un-burned Sodom and Gumorrah. This issue is a little different than the RESTORING of the priesthood to all worthy men.

eden said...

wasn't sure which way you were going to go from the intro on the post. must say i was pleasantly surprised... always nice to see a concise statement when i have problems forming them myself. (:

Anonymous said...

Calvin Great post!

Blacks and the priesthood is an entirely different situation, and the reason their skin is dark is explained in the BOM, the reason they couldnt have the priesthood until they did stems from that (in my opinion)

The Proclamation to the World was written in 1995 (15 YEARS AGO) Before this was such a controversial issue. Part of being a prophet is being a seer and a revelator. So dont you think
Gordon B. Hinkley (the prophet that wrote the Proc.) knew and had forsight that this was going to be a problem in the future?

It strenghthens my testimony even more about us having true prophets that lead and guide us on the earth today.

Julianne said...

It's real refreshing when people hold to their beliefs even when it's not necessarily very socially acceptable. Kudos.

Sam, The Nanti-SARRMM said...

Anonymous 8:42 Question then, why did Joseph Smith give the priesthood to a black man then if it was supposed to be disallowed?

c a n d a c e said...

I'm impressed with the eloquence and the reasoning. I find it admirable to have a strong opinion with sound reasoning to back it up. Kudos, C. I must say, I concur.

Reece Fraar said...

Are you honestly saying that children who are raised by gay parents will have all these problems down the road? They don't. I know, i am one. I'm happy and have never been made fun of. And this is why people have such a problem with the church. Jerks like you come and say that members that agree with gay marriage are going against God.

Also, since when did you, along with the rest of the church become responsible for other people's "sins"?

Thanks for sharing your opinion and allowing me to share mine.

KatOfDiamonds said...

The only thing I'm going to say here is that I am FOR same sex marriage but when it is written into law, it should NOT be mandated into any religious denomination.

It is a legal right but not a religious requirement.

For example, we have free will to choose how we express our faith. And amazing gift given by God.

So for example, the Catholic or LDS should have the right to say, no we will not perform that ceremony here. But if other denominations want to accept a ceremony, then they should be able to.

Freedom of choice.

That is all I'll say here. Feel free to come read my post and yell at me on my blog. I have to go to work since blogging and commenting has yet to pay my bills.

Laura said...

This was awesome!!!! I found myself grinning at half the stuff on the post, and the way you put it.

Pretend you have a friend who is a drug addict. They feel they need the right to be able to do their drugs, and make it legal. You still aren't going to give it to them. But, you don't hate your drug addict friend for his tendencies.

I guess most people's opinions come from a lack of evidence of if its natural or not. If we look at Gay tendencies as a Trial given to you for you to over come, like, depression, or other such mental issues, or if we look at it as this is a natural thing that people do, and its biological and ingrained into their heads.

That's where people think certain rights come from. But we can also say that We should make a law to allow Depressed people to go to raves and do drugs to make them happy.

Nicely done Calvin.

Anonymous said...

The division of the wheat and the tares is happening.

Nadia said...

Um...I disagreed with a lot but I'll only respond to one thing. If gay marriage is legalized everywhere that doesn't mean the LDS church has to allow it. Think about how in the Catholic Church if you were married previously in a Catholic ceremony and now divorced you cannot remarry in the same way until your first marriage is annulled. In this case you have the opportunity to marry civilly again but not through the church. And the Catholic Church only recognizes Catholic marriages as valid. I don't see any divorced people suing the Catholic Church because a priest won't preform their new marriage. Each church has the right to decide what it will and will not permit.

Furthermore I don't know why anyone would want to be married by an officiant who is completely against the union.

Anonymous said...

I am happy that I disagree with you and hope that one day you have an experience that changes your mind.

ethan_marston said...

I wish I could have just read off of this when one of my friends interrogated me last year...

Kevin said...

Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Even in the most basic cultures it has always been this way.

Now when it comes to tax benefits, let's look at this for a minute: Why do married couples receive benefits f...or being married, and additional benefits for having children? Because society needs procreation. These benefits were put in place to promote procreation of the human race. They weren't put there for the government to say thanks for living together. These benefits were put in place to say thanks for building America.

Nearly every state has a way in which gay couples can be recognized as a couple and if they go through the necessary legal steps there is really nothing different about their partnership than a marriage, except that they didn't go through the cultural or religious hoops that the state would recognize. No they don't get the same tax breaks, but why should they? The purpose of their partnership isn't to build America, in fact it actually works towards decreasing our numbers. Now you can argue about how hetero couples treat marriage and the same argument can be made about gay partnerships, but in the end the overall premise of marriage is still carried through by a majority of married couples. Regardless of whether they divorce or not for the most par they still "build America".

So if this is about tax benefits, let's be clear on why these benefits exist to begin with.

On an additional note let's stop kidding ourselves with arguments on how hetero couples haven't respected marriage. Yes divorce rates are up, but in the end we as Americans need the nuclear family to be strong. It is the most basic element of our society and the most important. It always has been. A gay marriage will never hold the same value in terms of what it does for society in comparison to the nuclear family. Changing the definition of marriage devalues the nuclear family in a time where it is already in need of help on a national, if not world level.

Kevin said...

Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Even in the most basic cultures it has always been this way.

Now when it comes to tax benefits, let's look at this for a minute: Why do married couples receive benefits f...or being married, and additional benefits for having children? Because society needs procreation. These benefits were put in place to promote procreation of the human race. They weren't put there for the government to say thanks for living together. These benefits were put in place to say thanks for building America.

Nearly every state has a way in which gay couples can be recognized as a couple and if they go through the necessary legal steps there is really nothing different about their partnership than a marriage, except that they didn't go through the cultural or religious hoops that the state would recognize. No they don't get the same tax breaks, but why should they? The purpose of their partnership isn't to build America, in fact it actually works towards decreasing our numbers. Now you can argue about how hetero couples treat marriage and the same argument can be made about gay partnerships, but in the end the overall premise of marriage is still carried through by a majority of married couples. Regardless of whether they divorce or not for the most par they still "build America".

So if this is about tax benefits, let's be clear on why these benefits exist to begin with.

On an additional note let's stop kidding ourselves with arguments on how hetero couples haven't respected marriage. Yes divorce rates are up, but in the end we as Americans need the nuclear family to be strong. It is the most basic element of our society and the most important. It always has been. A gay marriage will never hold the same value in terms of what it does for society in comparison to the nuclear family. Changing the definition of marriage devalues the nuclear family in a time where it is already in need of help on a national, if not world level.

Elisabeth said...

"I have a feeling that 2o years from now when the world is comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah"

Boyd K. Packer said, "I know nothing in the history or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity, that which surrounds us now...
...Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, even accorded legal protection. At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now they are spread across the world, and they ARE* among us."

*emphasis added.

This was written February 6, 2004

We are living in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah.
I agree with you Calvin, WHOLE-heartedly.

Tera said...

LOVE THIS! I really want to see the next post because I am sure I will love it just as much!

Anonymous said...

You're words are homophobic and hateful, and I feel sorry for you. I hope someday someone close to you tells you they are gay, and that your mind and heart will be opened.

Kam and Jord said...

I can respect your opinions, however, I don't agree at all. I do indeed think that by trying to force people to live to our morals, we are trying to take away agency. I agree that homosexuality is not a celestial trait, and I know that it is a sin. However, we cannot force people to not sin, so long as it isn't hurting anyone else. If we make gay marriage illegal, then why don't we make divorce illegal, or sex before marriage illegal, or obesity illegal. Why do we pick and choose what sins we allow people to commit? You cannot bring up murder or burglary, because they affect and hurt other people. Allowing to people to be married and love each other is not affecting my marriage. If it affects yours, then you are on shaky ground, and that isn't their fault.

Kam and Jord said...

Also, there will be no grounds for two gay men to sue for not being able to married in the LDS church. It is a private religion, able to make its own laws and regulations.

Waiting On A Sister Missionary said...

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I find it funny how many people have posted how "smart", "logical", or "intelligent" your arguments are. Really most of your arguments are completely ridiculous and sound more like they'd come from my middle-school-aged brother than someone my age.

The judge's job isn't to interpret or support the will of the people, the judge's job was to interpret the Constitution.

In my school, sex-ed was all about STDs and sex for the purpose of reproduction. Did you know that straight people sometimes have "butt-sex"? Still we're not talking about it in class.

Having the ability to perform a marriage does not require you to do so.

If someone was including gay couples as possible adoptive parents for their children, to the point that a gay couple made it to the final cut, they probably have a completely different view on the matter than you do, and you can't predict how they would choose.

I agree the "blacks not holding the priesthood" argument is bogus.

Then you sum it up with saying, "church leaders" say "vote with your conscience." while telling people whose conscience told them something different than yours told you are wrong.

Sure, I'm playing a bit of Devil's Advocate now, but even if I agree with you it's fairly easy to see most of your arguments are stupid. Really the only viable arguments are the ones in which you quoted church leadership.

Anonymous said...

Kam and Jord - you're an idiot!!! Nobody is choosing what sins people are allowed to commit. The prop was not whether or not gay people should be allowed to be gay, it was whether the current law should be changed to allow gay marriage to be legal. Gay people can still be gay, even if they are not married.

Protecting marriage is not forcing people to live our morals, it is simply not changing the definition of marriage as we know it.

Did you know that the one person (the judge) that overturned the voice of all the people that voted in California, is gay?! Why should one persons personal lifestyle and opinion overrule what the majority voted for?

And for the record, Michelle Obama is already trying to make obesity illegal.

Ducky said...

You're interpreting the actions of everyone as one. We are not all the same. We all have different reasons for thinking things. I don't blame the church, or the prophet. I understand why they say what they say. They had to. I don't think ill of our leaders. But it's hard to do something that in your gut you feel is wrong. I've cried about this, and prayed about this, and wanted to think differently so that people wouldn't say so many mean things to me when I tell them I'm for gay marriage.

How do you change your mind when you feel that something is wrong? Truly wrong? I know you feel the same way on the opposite side, and I'm not asking you to change your mind. So how can all of you ask me to change mine? I've had such a struggle with this. I would like to be the same as the majority, to avoid being chastised , however when I feel that something completely and totally wrong I will feel worse going against what I believe.

I'm being pushed away because I think differently. Instead of people continuing to love and care about me, I hear "You're a bad Mormon." and "Why are you even coming to church then if you don't follow our leaders?" I've even heard, "Then you probably shouldn't be Mormon," from people who I know watch r-rated movies, smoke cigars, drink on occasion, and many other things. And somehow this personal opinion that I have is so much worse than all of those things combined. It's hurtful.

B R I T N E Y said...

This post was a GREAT example of why I left the church.

I know you were saying that knowing that everybody would have a strong opinion one side or the other, but really?

The LDS church does not allow gay/lesbian acts, so they would not be sued if the bishop CHOSE to not marry the gay/lesbian couple. The bishop can deny any marriage that he wants to - including straight marriages.

I can't wrap my head around how closed-minded you are about this whole thing. I know sooo many people who have been raised by gays (gasp) and they lead successful lives. Most of them are straight too, if that matters to you as to whether or not the fact that their PARENTS influenced their sexuality or not.

And to someone anonymous (figures) who had commented on here: I realize blacks and the priesthood was a completely different thing, and it was explained in the BOM as to why the skin color was different. First of all, this person who commented is obviously WHITE because if a black or otherwies ethnic person read that he would be upset and not anything close to comfortable knowing that they were CURSED?! "Oh, it's because God cursed me and that's why I wasn't allowed the priesthood." Really?! Secondly, it's exactly the same thing. The people in the BOM were given the "right" to discriminate against the dark-colored people merely because of the color. Just because gays don't do everything exactly the same as straights do doesn't mean they should be discriminated against. THey are not CURSED in any way.

Judge how you want to be judged is the bottom line.

Anonymous said...

Also Anonymous who in call "Kam and Jord" an idiot, you are very lucky you're anonymous. Jord of "Kam and Jord" is probably about... oh 10 X your size and could probably squash you with his thumb. I doubt you'd be that brave if you weren't anonymous. Name calling will not get you anywhere, and only makes people tune out to what you have to say. I paused at that, and didn't read the rest of your comment. Learn how to not sound like a 12 year old and then maybe someone will pay attention to your argument.

Kam and Jord said...

Anon, great way to validate your point, starting it off with, "You are an idiot." Your comment lost all credibility after you said that. We are merely trying to express opinions. You are allowed to have yours, and I am allowed to have mine. And, yes, by telling someone how they should live, and restricting their rights as human beings (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness), we are not allowing them to choose and use their agency. Call me what you will, but this is how I feel and I won't back down.

Janie said...

I'm a health care provider and any act that is spreading the cause of disease is affecting me. They don't just affect themselves, but the health care system as well. I have to protect myself from coming in contact with ANY bodily fluids at work. No matter how much people say it doesn't affect them they are being ignorant.

Anonymous said...

Your opinion is already invalidated by the fact that you think global warming is a myth. Moron.

Get out of Utah, buddy.

Kam and Jord said...

To Janie...

Gays are the only ones who spread diseases? I would be willing to bet that there are more communicable diseases and STDs spread by heterosexuals than homosexuals.

Kam and Jord said...

Thanks Anon. I don't know who you are, but I appreciate your sticking up for me. And yes, I am the Jord, in Kam and Jord.

Anonymous said...

I think I'm in love with you...the point of this blog is to express how you feel, of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we don't wanna hear about them...but you nailed it dead on. you shall be blessed. will you marry me???

Anonymous said...

Best post I've ever read on this blog, it was refreshing to not read about some poor girl's rating or how much you want to make out with everyone. It was great to see this side of you!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:28 who is calling me out on being anonymous. So you think verbal, violent threats are supposed to intimidate me into believing some idiotic progressive ideology?

Guess what? the jord of "kam and jord" is also anomyous. I know nothing about him, other than what he says on his profile. So when I post as "anonymous" just imagine I have a fake profile with a fake picture and a fake name if that makes you feel better (just like most of the people here, including jake and calvin).

If you want to talk about arguing like a 12 year old, or being anonymous to try and distract everyone from the real argument here then so be it.

I don't care what religion you are, (or if you read my comment or not -which I know you did). If you believe that protecting the current definition of marriage is "wrong," maybe you should go back and read the bible. If you don't think our society is headed in the same direction as Sodom and Gomorrah (which did not end happily ever after) then, either you haven't read the bible or you don't believe it. If we do not learn from history, we are bound to repeat it. And changing the current laws and definitions of marriage to allow gays to marry is one more step in that direction.

Brandi said...

Whether I agree or disagree with your stance is neither here nor there, but you do have one bit of very inaccurate information.

Your statement about the church being sued for discrimination is incorrect.

The Catholic church has been refusing to allow certain people (pretty much anyone they deem unworthy) to marry for hundreds of years. Other churches also reserve the right to refuse to marry people. Hell, the Mormon church currently can refuse to marry anyone they want to refuse (and I'm not just talking about temple marriages).

So, while you may or may not be correct about everything else, that one particular argument is invalid.

Erin said...

I'm a faithful member of the church, and have been my whole life, but this is just something i have issues with. maybe because i have a fair amount of gay friends.
the thing that bothered me about when prop 8 was going down was that my stake president of my student ward asked us to fast for proposition 8, and i just couldn't do it. i didn't feel like it was right for me to fast for something i wasn't fully invested in, you know? i just think that i'm not going to go out there and say that i support something if i personally feel unsure about it.
i do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. but can i defend it? i don't think i can.

Ashley Jane said...

Wow. I totally agreed with all of this and was really impressed that you hit like... EVERY ANGLE! As a Californian whose vote means NOTHING apparently... well, thanks for understanding at least- even if we can't freakin' do anything about it. For now.

Laura said...

"Traditional
marriage has been the foundation of civil society for centuries and we
cannot simply toss it aside to fit the political whims of liberal
...activists with gavels."

Amen.

Erika said...

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Anonymous said...

Calvin, you're an ignorant douche bag.

WilWheaton said...

Laura:

The definition of 'Traditional Marriage' has been changes. Heck, when America was founded it was still one WHITE man and one WHITE woman.

Anonymous said...

I see you bring up the race issue.

a prophet of god, once said,"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." -Brigham Young

How about this quote from a talk given in the 50's that is not famous, but is known to people who have looked into the race issue of the church at all.
"God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death.... " Elder Mark E. Petersen (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve from 1944 til his death)



Gay marriage is legal in Massachusetts, where I was born and raised...where I still live. It has not negatively impacted kids, and in fact, in states where there isn't a ban on gay marriage...divorce rates are lower. I can assure you that gay parents who are wonderful parents is a lot better fate than a life stuck in fostercare. Most heterosexual couples who are even willing to adopt are looking for babies, more specifically, babies that look like them. The gay couples I know aren't quite so picky and are entirely willing to provide a loving home for older children of different races that would otherwise remain without a family.
Anyhow, marriage is not a religous thing. It certainly can be and usually is, but atheists marry and their marriages are legal. You need vows to be married legally, but they don't need to be religous. Its perfectly acceptable for the church to not allow gay temple marriage, thats something that is protected by the freedom of religion, but trying to stop the right to earthly marriage for people outside of the religion is overstepping.
We all know about the church's past belief in polygamy, so I don't see why you would bring that up as one of the unwanted things that would follow gay marriage. Polygamy was something that the prophets of God were supportive of. But that changed due to society.
Many homosexual people have struggled immensely with their sexuality and religion and have tried to change themselves. But it doesn't really work, usually it just leads to self hate and suicidal tendencies.
Instead of people hating themselves and their families being ashamed, most of the young homosexuals I know are able to love life and be good people. Of course discrimination against them still exists, but they don't have to hate themselves for loving who they love. And loving someone is very different than other "sinful" tendencies one might be born with. Murder does not usually come from a place of love but a place of hate. A gay man falls in love in the same way that a straight man does. They feel the same sorts offeelings. Imagine you falling in love with a woman but you can't marry her because she is black and you are white and to marry would be a sin...because then you're sons and all your grandchildren and so on would be unable to hold the priesthood. However, there's a white woman you don't really love but she is able to give you white babies, white sons who will be able to hold the priesthood. What do you do? You, Calvin, would probably be happy to just be able to have sex, so I'm sure it'd be a simple matter for you to ignore your love for the black woman and enter into a marriage with the white woman for the sake of white children. But for others, its a lot more difficult.
Homosexuality isn't a choice, if it was, there would be a lot more heterosexuals. Homosexuals wouldn't kill themselves when they can't take their family's hatred of them anymore. Instead, they would change.

Anonymous said...

I see you bring up the race issue.

a prophet of god, once said,"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." -Brigham Young

How about this quote from a talk given in the 50's that is not famous, but is known to people who have looked into the race issue of the church at all.
"God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death.... " Elder Mark E. Petersen (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve from 1944 til his death)



Gay marriage is legal in Massachusetts, where I was born and raised...where I still live. It has not negatively impacted kids, and in fact, in states where there isn't a ban on gay marriage...divorce rates are lower. I can assure you that gay parents who are wonderful parents is a lot better fate than a life stuck in fostercare. Most heterosexual couples who are even willing to adopt are looking for babies, more specifically, babies that look like them. The gay couples I know aren't quite so picky and are entirely willing to provide a loving home for older children of different races that would otherwise remain without a family.
Anyhow, marriage is not a religous thing. It certainly can be and usually is, but atheists marry and their marriages are legal. You need vows to be married legally, but they don't need to be religous. Its perfectly acceptable for the church to not allow gay temple marriage, thats something that is protected by the freedom of religion, but trying to stop the right to earthly marriage for people outside of the religion is overstepping.
We all know about the church's past belief in polygamy, so I don't see why you would bring that up as one of the unwanted things that would follow gay marriage. Polygamy was something that the prophets of God were supportive of. But that changed due to society.
Many homosexual people have struggled immensely with their sexuality and religion and have tried to change themselves. But it doesn't really work, usually it just leads to self hate and suicidal tendencies.
Instead of people hating themselves and their families being ashamed, most of the young homosexuals I know are able to love life and be good people. Of course discrimination against them still exists, but they don't have to hate themselves for loving who they love. And loving someone is very different than other "sinful" tendencies one might be born with. Murder does not usually come from a place of love but a place of hate. A gay man falls in love in the same way that a straight man does. They feel the same sorts offeelings. Imagine you falling in love with a woman but you can't marry her because she is black and you are white and to marry would be a sin...because then you're sons and all your grandchildren and so on would be unable to hold the priesthood. However, there's a white woman you don't really love but she is able to give you white babies, white sons who will be able to hold the priesthood. What do you do? You, Calvin, would probably be happy to just be able to have sex, so I'm sure it'd be a simple matter for you to ignore your love for the black woman and enter into a marriage with the white woman for the sake of white children. But for others, its a lot more difficult.
Homosexuality isn't a choice, if it was, there would be a lot more heterosexuals. Homosexuals wouldn't kill themselves when they can't take their family's hatred of them anymore. Instead, they would change.

Anonymous said...

I was worried when I saw this post... until I actually read it and Calvin, I just fell in love you even more. And yes, I'm a Mormon and a girl!

Jacob said...

Anonymous 1:52pm: Both of those quote were taken out of context. Everyone who actually has studied it knows that. You just proved you copied and pasted someone elses manipulation.

Nice job Calvin.

Sheila said...

So many issues, for for God's sakes, "Laura", depression IS frequently a natural thing that people have no control over onset. And gay marriage, regardless of how you feel about it, is NOT drug use. When people blast the Church for homophobia, I want to disagree but then I think of comments like this one from members and cringe.


"I guess most people's opinions come from a lack of evidence of if its natural or not. If we look at Gay tendencies as a Trial given to you for you to over come, like, depression, or other such mental issues, or if we look at it as this is a natural thing that people do, and its biological and ingrained into their heads."

Anonymous said...

I assume this post was sarcastic to show the ridiculous arguments some mormons use on this subject.

Christy said...

If you are opposed to Gay marriage then tell the heterosexuals to stop having gay children.

I have never seen a larger group of closed minded people in my life.

@Janie - what school gave you a degree? Gay people are no more sexually active than heterosexual people. Getting a clue.

Anonymous said...

i guess "we the people" really means "I the judge"

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm... I love little reminders about why it sucked to be Mormon.

It was logic like yours which made me realize the loving, merciful God that I believe in is NOT the same one that the majority of church members believe in. I figured I'd be better off practicing my spirituality on my own without all of the negative hate to bring me down. Best decision I ever made.

Matt said...

First, I'm confused about why you view my ability to love other men as a negative. "God is love . . . but not Matt's love"?

Second, I chuckle at how you imply that it was homosexuality that brought God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Joseph Smith taught that the city was destroyed because they rejected the prophets. Hugh Nibly taught it was because "great wealth had made her people cruel and self-righteous." The books of Ezekiel and Amos say it was because of pride and idleness.

And, finally, I'm awestruck that you presume to know how spirit children are or are not created. Did I miss the Sunday school lesson on celestial sex? Perhaps there was a CES fireside on it?

We don't have any idea how spirit children are created. Glorified semen + glorified egg = spirit baby? Maybe, I guess. But in this world physical coupling creates a physical body; I would think celestial sex would create a glorified physical baby body.

For all that we know, it's the experience of joint orgasm by celestial beings that creates a spirit body, or a particular resonance between spirits, or a million other processes.

Who are you to say two men can't do it when you don't know how it's done?

Kati said...

Calvin, thank you. This really is a controversial subject and you put yourself under fire for writing this, thanks for putting it out there. I am a Californian and whats going on is wrong, thanks for being brave enough to say so

Cyd said...

I don't often comment on the blog but I just wanted to say thanks. I have been trying forever to put into words how I feel about prop 8 and you said it perfectly.

Carolyn said...

SPOT ON!!! Thank you for getting down to the nitty-gritty and really hitting every nail right on the head. FANTASTIC!!

And, by the way, is it really that surprising that a TV talent show like "American Idol" gets more votes than an American election? Nope. You can see why people become jaded to voting when the votes of so many were overturned by one man. It's sickening.

Anonymous said...

Long time reader, first time commenter.

Eternal Family is the cornerstone of our religion. If you TRULY understood the LDS religion, you would understand why we are against gay marriage and we fight hard to make it illegal. Just because we dont agree with you, does not mean we hate you.

End rant.

The Lady Girl said...

Can i get a "AMENAH"!?!

The myth of global warming- Al Gore is an ass? FACT!

Jessica said...

I actually lived in California and was there for prop 22 and prop 8. Just wanted to say that on almost everything you're right. The First Presidency and Apostles didn't straight out say "vote for this," but they basically did. There were firesides for everyone on the importance of the proclamation as well as reminders of what our beliefs are. So, no they didn't come out and say "vote for this," but if you didn't get that message you weren't paying attention. My personal opinion is that when you get so offended and freak out and leave the church, do to an event like this, you obviously didn't have a testimony to begin with. It's like God's way of weeding out the crap. haha. That's right I called them crap. It's one thing for people outside of the church who have never known what we know to not be supportive, but for those in the church who have chosen to fight against it, it's just ridiculous. Don't watch that stupid documentary. Just ask someone that was there. No one has anything to hide and it would be less one sided.

Kirsten Nicole said...

Wow...I don't comment on blogs like this really, but this time around I have to say that you were DEAD ON. Way rude, totally ridiculous, overly brash and totally presumptuous... but dead freakin' on.
Thanks for the honesty... there aren't enough people who are this bold on 'our' side of the argument!
Ummm...how about let's make you a politician when you grow up, k?
Keep on rockin' it, my friend. :) :)

Anonymous said...

This blog is completely ridiculous, and you're a prick. Thank you for making me feel physically ill.

Kam and Jord said...

Whoa Jess, a bit judgmental are we? I am an active member who has a bit of an issue with Proposition 8. Am I crap too?

Anonymous said...

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=3238#comment-915169

Alicia Johnson said...

I completely agree!

Joe Conflict said...

Everything you wrote stinks of being written by a heterosexual who has no idea what its like to be gay.

It also shows your inability to grasp that there is a world beyond your own....

Rennie said...

Very well put, I agree almost 100%! Geez how I wish I could tell people that to their face... but they just get so pissed!

Anonymous said...

Lol, Hehe, You said "gay butt sex".

But seriously brother, you begin this post with a claim to love everybody, and yet, you quite clearly make fun of an action that those gay people you "love" may find just as special as heterosexual sex. Oh, but to you it's gross and thus your love only extends so far.

If you want to be taken seriously, I'd avoid sounding like a 10 year old.
Also, I'm surprised at the numerous comments giving you props as if your argument was something special. I've heard it quite often by countless business major/return missionary types. If I wanted to hear it right now, all I'd have to do is walk into any student ward lobby.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if this is one of those posts you wrote just to stir the pot or if you really meant all of these things. But I live in California and I'm pretty angry that a judge overturned the vote of the people. And it really bothers me that I can't talk about it without many of my friends criticizing me. I even have a couple of friends who won't talk to me anymore because I voted yes.

Anyway, the point of all this is that I've been questioning the entire issue and this post actually made me feel better about my vote and my opinion. I appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

How interesting that you decide to do a controversial post now when you haven't been getting any comments. 78 now - well I guess it worked.

And just so you know, gay guys aren't the only people who have "butt sex."

Your arguments are bigoted. Sometimes people have their own beliefs separate from what there church tells them. I know that when I listen to my conscience, it doesn't sound like Tom Monson.

Brooklyn said...

Right on man, right on.

Anonymous said...

I wish more people actually understood exactly how horrifying it is that anyone accepts gay behavior. I hope the second coming is soon so I can escape the torture of ignorant opinion.

Anonymous said...

I think that this post is very well put. I've been trying to form my own opinions about this subject, I've just been having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. But this post was exactly how I feel about it... I respect you for writing your honest feelings about such a controversial topic.

Janie said...

Just to re-quote myself: "any act that is spreading the cause of disease is affecting me. They don't just affect themselves, but the health care system as well." No where in my statement did I use words limiting the perimeters to sexual orientation. I did this on purpose. I believe any act whether hetero or homosexual that is spreading disease is irresponsible and shouldn't be encouraged.

Anonymous said...

Wow. I'm actually getting converted back to this blog.

The only thing I would add is that it is not surprising that a GAY judge ruled in favor of GAY marriage. It's a joke Walker was even presiding at the trial.

And I absolutely agree with your overall point. It's completely unsurprising that a lot of non-Mormons hate the Mormon Church for its pro-family position. But how you call yourself a Mormon but then turn around and hate the Church and fight against the Prophet is shocking...and ridiculous. If you want to be a Mormon, great. Be one. If not, well that's your choice too. But don't try to have it both ways.

Anonymous said...

I was suprised which way you went on this issue, but completely agree.

To all you who are saying he claims to love everyone than contradicted himself....just because you disagree with some one doesnt mean you hate them. Havent you ever disagreed with someone you hold in good light?

Nikki said...

LOVE that you wrote on this and nice job refuting the mental retardation. People leaving the church over this are losers and stuck in a politically defined world of victimology. Fine babies, leave and cry crocodile tears for the biologically reproducing challenged and watch them force the government and science to figure out a way for two dudes and two chicks to make a baby.
Not only does gay marriage create an entire generation of step child one biological parent families, it forces children selfishly created for these selfish unions to find their biological family tree. DNA matters folks and if you think this isn't the ending of a species then you are the product of sibling parents. In the world of science and not religion, when 2 dudes marry or hook up they are incapable of reproducing, result according to science, the end of a species. Extinction of a family. One of the biggies in marriage for religious folks is multiply and replenish the earth and this is a big area of no can do for fags and lezzies. It will however ensure that the government look at them as equals in adoption. Swell. But keep pushing this ridiculous practice jacked-up libtard Mormons and we will all be surrounded by kids raised by who the F*** knows. More traditional family down the crapper. So gay parents are loving, big fat deal. So were the penguins when they raised the penguin and he tried to kill batman. PEACE OUT.

Waiting On A Sister Missionary said...

Nikki, you're dumb. Not because you disagree with the "fags and lezzies" getting married, but because you've let you emotional views on the subject cause you to make an obscene argument.

Why use the if-they-can't-reproduce-they-shouldn't-be-together argument or the DNA argument, or the adoption argument? What about the tens of thousands of STRAIGHT couples that adopt, or are incapable of reproduction in any way? What about those kids they adopt? They also have the choice to find their genetic background. I guess we should just shut down LDS Family Services since adoption ruins kids' lives across the board.

That was easily the most idiotic, ignorant, word-vomit of an argument I've ever heard against gay-marriage. If you really feel the need to argue the issue, do both sides a favor and try to sound like you actually thought for a second or two before you started typing.

Anonymous said...

I'm really annoyed right now. Look at everyone. Stone throwing. So much stone throwing going on. You judge people harshly for their opinions on both sides. You know, shouldn't you just love people? I'm pretty sure that is what Christ would do. Talking about how people should leave the church or not be Mormon if they disagree with a policy. A POLICY. Not willing to even discuss or listen to their thoughts on it, or their struggles with it. Many of you just cast them to the wind and say, "well see ya," when you believe that this is The True Church. You want them to leave it for thinking differently before the policy was actually put in place. And many of them haven't even acted on their opinions. It's hard to change an opinion you've had all your life in a few months.
Gay people that have gay tendencies and do not act on them are allowed to be in the church, hold positions, etc etc. How is it then that you call of these people who have an opinion about this stupid? And idiots? And wrong? Did they vote? Did they protest? You don't know, but if they don't live in California probably not. And yet, you treat their opinion like a more heinous sin than any other sin possible, when they have not even made an action. They have a thought. That's it.
Many people who join the church do so thinking that it isn't wrong to drink, and that it isn't wrong to smoke, and it isn't wrong to have sex out of wedlock. In fact some people think maybe it's kind of stupid. But many of those same people refrain from those ACTIONS because they love and believe in what the church has to offer. How is this any different? And who are any of you to judge and fault them for this? No one is perfect. No one is blameless. Everyone has faults. And the only person that gets to judge those and decide our worth based on them is God.

I may not support gay marriage, but I know that pushing people away from the church is not going to do any good for it or us. Christ taught us to love everyone, and I just wish I saw more of that happening.

Nikki said...

Waiting for a sister missionary, let's focus my argument was not emotional it was biological. 2 hetero's who are unable to have children are still male and female and last time I checked that was legal. So let's not confuse hetero couples and gay couples as the same like most who are for gay marriage do. They are not the same, they are different. It's like saying a man should be able to have a kid cuz he wants to and he is being discriminated against when he wants to take the pill. Swell, problem is, he doesn't have ovaries or a vagina or a uterus.
I never said gay people shouldn't be together, go ahead be together. I just said they shouldn't get married. I don't see anyone saying gay people should shack up and be happy about it. Hell I wish marriage were illegal for everyone then we could all just screw each other with no guilt. Stop trying to make an unnatural practice natural by invoking hetero reproductive inability as though it's the same thing. That is vomit in my mouth and stupid as F***.

Anonymous said...

Sister Missionary,

You said:

"Having the ability to perform a marriage does not require you to do so."

Well, this is part of the issue. A lesbian couple sued a doctor who refused to perform artificial insemination on one of them, which he'd refused to do for religious reasons. The California Supreme Court said that the doctor either had to start performing the procedure on lesbians, or stop it altogether. The real concern is that courts will take a similar approach with Mormon churches - either marry gay couples or we'll take away your right to perform any marriages.

Also, you said:

"What about the tens of thousands of STRAIGHT couples that adopt, or are incapable of reproduction in any way? What about those kids they adopt?"

This argument deliberately misconstrues the pro-family position. Only a man and woman can naturally reproduce. Nature determined kids should have a mother and father, if possible. So, kids adopted by a male-female couple have a mother and father. Can you really support a family model that would purposefully deny children the right to a mother and father?

Waiting On A Sister Missionary said...

Anonymous 3:22-

I'd be interested to see the story of this Doctor that the courts are forcing to perform an ELECTIVE PROCEDURE. If it's true, then the DR. is an idiot because all he would have to do is refer the couple to another doctor or clinic. It happens all the time.

And Yes, I did also say that other thing, however the quote was taken out of context. First of all, I didn't argue either side of the point. Pro-Traditional Family/Pro-Family or whatever. I was merely pointing out that Nikki's use of the term "biologically reproducing challenged" applies to many more than homosexual couples, and therefore is not a good basis for arguing the point.

I know it's sometimes hard to believe, but there are members of this church who don't really care what happens on this issue. I'm well aware that whatever happens is God's Will, so why should I care what other people can and can't do through worldly law? Would the decision going either way effect my future marriage either way? No. Could this turn the US into the next Sodom and Gomorrah? Possibly, but the world is going to end regardless. Arguing whether this issue is right or wrong is like arguing whether or not there is a God with an atheist, there's nothing you can say to change someones mind if they don't want to change it.

Anonymous said...

Calvin, you rock. Agreed :)

Matt said...

I think Nikki is actually a lesbian with a gift for satire.

Anon 2:17, you're sweet.

Re: the idea that of course a gay judge would rule in favor of gay marriage, have you looked at the text of his ruling? I think perhaps the biggest difference is that a gay judge was willing to put in a lot more work compiling evidence than a straight one would have been.

In fact, Calvin, if you read these, I'd be interested in seeing a follow up post in which you take on Walker's ruling point by point. It seems pretty unassailable to me, but I'm sure you can find a way.

Nikki said...

I am a lesbian with a gift for satire and I am also an attention whore.

Ducky said...

Really... in my opinion the fact that a gay judge made a ruling on this is not a very good argument for anything. Just what exactly are you implying? The people who ruled against it were straight. And I'm pretty sure that first judge who was giving out licenses regardless of gender was straight.

To you I say, "So what if he was gay?"

Mormon Mystery Girl said...

This has been one of your better posts :)

Anonymous said...

Sister Missionary,

"I'd be interested to see the story of this Doctor that the courts are forcing to perform an ELECTIVE PROCEDURE. If it's true, then the DR. is an idiot because all he would have to do is refer the couple to another doctor or clinic. It happens all the time."

The Court didn't force him to perform it, they said that if he was going to perform it, he had to be willing to perform it for same sex couples. He tried to refer them to another doctor, but that wasn't good enough for the same-sex couple. They were mad that he refused to perform the procedure for them on religious grounds, so they sued. The same thing will very likely happen if same sex marriage is permitted.

I agree that it's difficult to change people's minds on this, but I don't believe that means we shouldn't express our opinion on the issue. And, I think there are some people who are undecided and want to hear both sides.

As to your "whatever happens is God's will" argument, may I self-righteously point to Moroni and the Title of Liberty (oh yeah, I said it). Moroni didn't just take a back seat and say, "Well, if the Lord wants us to win, he'll destroy all the Lamanites for us." He took action and defended what was important. I think we have a responsibility to do the same.

Natasha said...

"finally the state of CA is doing the right thing"
Yes finally the state of California is doing the right thing. Voting is great and all but the country was set up to protect minorities from mob rule. This is what happened in California.
"I'm just happy that people born gay will be able to get married"
While there's no solid evidence on either side of the born or choose debate doesn't mean you can discriminate. And who are you to talk about sins of engaging in behavior. pfh. If a gay person did any of your NOTI scale they'd be in for a lot more than a talk with the bishop.
"as long as it doesn't affect me, let them do what they want"
Schools aren't going to talk about butt sex but who cares if they do? I'm pretty sure most parents have the option of not having the school talk to their kids about sex and doing that themselves. They should be doing that anyway.
"okay.... but other than that it doesn't affect me."
Um and what happened to separation of church and state? a gay couple can't sue the church for not marrying them. BESIDES the point that why would a gay couple want a bigoted MORMON bishop who thinks they are going to hell to marry them anyway? Seriously?
"gays being allowed to get married is inevitable. what's the point in trying to stop it?"
So it's your responsibility to stop one sin, gay marriage? what about Word of Wisdom sins? want prohibition again?
"I don't know why people are making such a big deal of this"
And I don't get what your thing about polygamy is considering the church still practices polygamy and the scripture requiring polygamy for exhalation is still in the D and C, seems like you should want legalized polygamy. The only reason the church stopped it was to comply with the laws of the United States. And seriously? brother and sister? are there brothers and sisters who want to be married? That's just as bad as the dog argument.
"but forcing gay people to live the same morals as we do..."
Murdering has a bad effect on communities and society- it involves KILLING PEOPLE?!?!?! really? we equate loving and carrying and protecting relationships to MURDER?! And they already are "sinning" nothing about a committed relationship between two homosexual people changes with a marriage license other than gaining the protections that a similar heterosexual relationship would have. Denying them a marriage doesn't change their lifestyle!
"it's taking away their right to marry a member of the opposite sex"
It's not requesting additional rights, it's about pursuit of happiness- a so called "inalienable right" "endowed by their maker"
So if they are never going to have that opportunity in the next life why do you give a shit if they have it now?
How do you know what "god" is going to allow or not allow?
"i think that gay couples deserve to be happy...."
Actually all studies done on the welfare of homosexual couple's children show that they do BETTER than children of heterosexual couples! omg! yah, it's true!
And the worst possible homo couple is still prepared and ready and willing and happy to have a child. Adoption is a long process. they don't give kids to anyone.
The church has changed it's mind multiple times on multiple issues, not just blacks and the priesthood. and again who cares if the mormon church thinks it's cool or not, that's not the issue!
The church leaders are old-fashioned hypocrites.
And look into the money and involvement the church had in Prop 8. I'd definitely call it more than a "reminder" of beliefs.

Natasha said...

Yes finally the state of California is doing the right thing. Voting is great and all but the country was set up to protect minorities from mob rule.
While there's no solid evidence on either side of the born or choose debate doesn't mean you can discriminate. And who are you to talk about sins of engaging in sexual behavior?
Schools aren't going to talk about butt sex but who cares if they do? I'm pretty sure most parents have the option of not having the school talk to their kids about sex and doing that themselves. They should be doing that anyway.
Um and what happened to separation of church and state? a gay couple can't sue the church for not marrying them. BESIDES the point that why would a gay couple want a bigoted MORMON bishop who thinks they are going to hell to marry them anyway?
So it's your responsibility to stop one sin, gay marriage? what about Word of Wisdom sins? want prohibition again?
I don't get what your thing about polygamy is considering the church still practices polygamy and the scripture requiring polygamy for exhalation is still in the D and C, seems like you should want legalized polygamy. The only reason the church stopped it was to comply with the laws of the United States. And seriously? brother and sister? are there brothers and sisters who want to be married? That's just as bad as the dog argument.
Murdering has a bad effect on communities and society- it involves KILLING PEOPLE?!?!?! really? we equate loving and carrying and protecting relationships to MURDER?! And they already are "sinning" nothing about a committed relationship between two homosexual people changes with a marriage license other than gaining the protections that a similar heterosexual relationship would have. Denying them a marriage doesn't change their lifestyle!
It's not requesting additional rights, it's about pursuit of happiness- a so called "inalienable right" "endowed by their maker"
Actually all studies done on the welfare of homosexual couple's children show that they do BETTER than children of heterosexual couples!
The church has changed it's mind multiple times on multiple issues, not just blacks and the priesthood. and again who cares if the mormon church thinks it's cool or not, that's not the issue!
And look into the money and involvement the church had in Prop 8. I'd definitely call it more than a "reminder" of beliefs.

Natasha said...

Yes finally the state of California is doing the right thing. The country was set up to protect minorities from mob rule.
While there's no solid evidence on either side of the born or choose debate doesn't mean you can discriminate.
Schools aren't going to talk about butt sex. I'm pretty sure most parents have the option of not having the school talk to their kids about sex and doing that themselves. They should be doing that anyway.
a gay couple can't sue the church for not marrying them. BESIDES the point that why would a gay couple want a MORMON bishop who thinks they are going to hell to marry them anyway?
So it's your responsibility to stop one sin, gay marriage? what about Word of Wisdom sins? want prohibition again?
I don't get what your thing about polygamy is considering the church still practices polygamy and the scripture requiring polygamy for exhalation is still in the D and C. The only reason the church stopped it was to comply with the laws of the United States. And seriously? brother and sister?
Murdering has a bad effect on communities and society- it involves KILLING PEOPLE?!?!?! really? we equate loving and carrying and protecting relationships to MURDER?! And they already are "sinning" marriage won't change that.
It's not requesting additional rights, it's about pursuit of happiness- a so called "inalienable right"
Actually all studies done on the welfare of homosexual couple's children show that they do BETTER than children of heterosexual couples!
The church has changed it's mind multiple times on multiple issues, not just blacks and the priesthood. and again who cares if the mormon church thinks it's cool or not, that's not the issue!
And look into the money and involvement the church had in Prop 8. I'd definitely call it more than a "reminder" of beliefs.

Natasha said...

Yes finally the state of California is doing the right thing. The country was set up to protect minorities from mob rule.
While there's no solid evidence on either side of the born or choose debate doesn't mean you can discriminate.
Schools aren't going to talk about butt sex. I'm pretty sure most parents have the option of not having the school talk to their kids about sex and doing that themselves. They should be doing that anyway.
a gay couple can't sue the church for not marrying them. BESIDES the point that why would a gay couple want a MORMON bishop who thinks they are going to hell to marry them anyway?
So it's your responsibility to stop one sin, gay marriage? what about Word of Wisdom sins? want prohibition again?
I don't get what your thing about polygamy is considering the church still practices polygamy and the scripture requiring polygamy for exhalation is still in the D and C. The only reason the church stopped it was to comply with the laws of the United States. And seriously? brother and sister?
Murdering has a bad effect on communities and society- it involves KILLING PEOPLE?!?!?! really? we equate loving and carrying and protecting relationships to MURDER?! And they already are "sinning" marriage won't change that.
It's not requesting additional rights, it's about pursuit of happiness- a so called "inalienable right"
Actually all studies done on the welfare of homosexual couple's children show that they do BETTER than children of heterosexual couples!
The church has changed it's mind multiple times on multiple issues, not just blacks and the priesthood.

Andrew said...

From California, living in California, and I totally agree with you. All we did was define marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. No one is being left out from the ability to get "married." Homosexual couples cannot by definition get married, they get "domestic partnershipped" (new word?).

Jon said...

Now this is what I've been looking for! Finally somebody that faithfully follows their church leaders, but doesn't do it blindly. This is both religiously and politically sound. Standing ovation.

so, now what? said...

I love your post. It is very direct and convincing. But I must warn you that bringing the word "sin" into a very opinionated subject will knock you off the ladder. I'm not disagreeing with your beliefs, in fact I used to be LDS myself; people need to discuss these subjects with an open mind. Just as you believe in god, atheist do not. So you cannot win an argument by telling someone they are sinning when they do what they want. Other than that, your argument was exceptionally well.

Faroe said...

Amen. There are a couple interesting statements by Presidnet Hinckley about it. I blogged about them a while ago.
http://mattandfaroe.blogspot.com/2008/09/proposition-8_19.html

Dustin said...

"Are you honestly trying to tell me that at some point in the future, God is going to allow two gay men to co-habitate in the Celestial Kingdom and create worlds together?"

With the way your church revises its history, its scripture, and prophecy from past prophets, I don't think this is too far fetched to be quite honest. There might come a day where your church decides it needs to further modernize itself (as it has in the past).