On Saturday night a big group of us went down to Provo for some girls birthday party. She was Claire's friend and Claire promised that there would be lots of fresh tail there for us to chase. Of course I should have known that a cute girl having a birthday party is like when the Elders Quorum decides to go paint-balling... lots of dudes all on the prowl, ready to shoot other dudes in the back.I hung around Claire and Stephanie most of the night. They said they weren't too fond of Zoobies anyway.
Around 11:30, Claire says she needs to run to the store and asks if I want to come. I say yes of course and figure I might be able to see if she knows what everyone-else-I-talk-to-about-her-besides-her-thinks-she-knows, which I am still too chicken to just admit. On the way, she is explaining what she needs to buy for something that she was cooking the next day. I started wondering at what point I was going to get invited when Claire starts explaining how she was nervous that she wouldn't be able to find some certain spice brand that she had only been able to find at the Smiths in Murray.
I reminded her that it was open 24 hours and that we could stop by on the way home. She gave me a disappointed look and said in her disappointed voice, "We'll never make it by midnight, Jake." I looked at the clock in the car and it was 11:37pm. It suddenly dawned on me that Claire wanted to go to the store right now so that she could avoid breaking the Sabbath.
As much as I like Claire, we don't see eye to eye on everything. I usually just let what I feel to be self-righteousness go, but for some reason I decided this would be a good one to discuss.
I asked, "What are you going to do if we don't make it in time?" She looked at me, "Have a prayer in your heart, Jake. We can make it." I laughed and remembered when I was on my mission and my companion and I would bless the the grocery store as we drove by so that all of the food we bought from there would be blessed... just in case we got so incredibly hungry that we forgot (which happened frequently) to bless the food... I was about to tell Claire that story when she asked me, "Don't you think keeping the Sabbath Day holy is pretty serious?"
I replied, "Of course. I guess I've just always done it a little differently than you." She responded with, "I didn't know there was 'differently' when it came to commandments." I wanted to laugh... however, in past conversations where Claire and I talk about spiritual things, Claire will automatically dismiss my entire point of view no matter how valid, upon the basis that I am not taking the discussion seriously - as evidenced by my laughter. So I didn't laugh, I just said, "I have always considered the 'end of the day' to be the time that I go to bed and the 'beginning of the day' the time that I wake up. So if I go to bed at 2am Saturday night, that is still Saturday, not the Sabbath day."
Claire smiled, for once she was driving so I got to watch her reactions instead of our usual other way around. She said, "Sounds like justification." I replied, "No. I am very good at justification, and this is not it." She said, "You said, '2am Saturday night' but what day is that actually?" I answered, "Well, 2am is Sunday." She said, "Right and Sunday is the Sabbath Day, right?"
"I know what you're saying Claire. I'm not saying the way you have chosen to practice is wrong. I just wonder if you can see what I am saying." She said, "I know what you're saying Jake. I'm just telling you that sounds wrong to me." I asked, "Why?" She said, "Even the way you said it, '2am Saturday' instead of 2am Sunday and 'not the Sabbath day' even though... no matter what... Sunday is Sunday. You're changing it to suit you."
I grinned. 'Ah, semantics...' I thought, nice move Claire. I said, "I said it that way so you would understand what I was saying, not because I need 2am to be on a Saturday or a Sunday, either way it doesn't change a thing." She looked at me smugly. I explained further, "It's a matter of consistency. If I decide that the 'day' starts and stops when I wake and go to sleep, then that doesn't mean that on Sunday night at 12:01am that I can run out to the store and pick up some grapes because, to me, it is still the Sabbath Day."
She said, "Some of the best times are on Sunday nights at midnight. Denny's or Ice Cream at midnight." I said, "Well okay, but I feel like that would be trivializing my observance of the Sabbath day. More so than continuing my 'fun times' after midnight on Saturday." Claire smiled again, she looked at me like my teachers used to when they thought they knew better. She said, "You need to figure out how your talent for justifying can be used for good, or you need to hide it under a bushel."
I couldn't help it and I finally laughed. Claire honestly thought that I was just spinning the commandment the way that best suited me. I swear though, on a stack of Book of Mormons that I really think that the way I do it is completely legitimate. That one time, when I told my Greenie on my mission that playing Mario Brothers all day at a less-actives house was quality "Building Relationships of Trust" time, now, that was justifying.
Claire says, "So you're joking?" I said, "No Claire, I am not joking." Claire, "Why did you laugh?" I said, "Because for being one of my favorite people, I am astounded at how narrow your viewpoint is sometimes." She said, "Making fun of someone right after justifying sin? Nice one Alma the Younger."
I laughed again, "Sin?" She was getting irritated, but I didn't care. "Maybe its because you're so young -" She interrupted, "You're only 22, dork." I responded, "Yeah, well I guess it takes three years to learn." Claire seldom got mad at me, but she said, "Now you're just being a jerk."
I asked, "You think that because I have no problems shopping after midnight on Saturday until I go to sleep, but won't go out to eat after midnight on Sunday night that I am sinning? Should I give my Temple recommend back or what?" She didn't respond. I said, "I'm just saying that the Sabbath day is one of those things that you do the way it feels right."
We pulled into the parking lot of the Smiths in Provo. She said, "I think we need to agree to disagree and talk about something else." I said, "Agreed."
We walked into the Smiths and I couldn't believe my eyes... It was busier than a Saturday afternoon in that grocery store. Not just a regular Saturday afternoon, but a Saturday afternoon on a holiday where they might be giving away plasma TV's that vacuum your floor silently while cooking flapjacks. It was insane! Nearly every register was open and the lines were unbelievably long.
Claire smugly said, "Isn't it neat to see all these members of the Church trying to keep the Sabbath Day holy?"
I looked around in awe, I responded, "Yeah. Neat. ...I should start a Denny's that's only open at Midnight on Sunday, I'll make a fortune."
Perhaps I am the one bad Sabbath day observer in Mormondom... perhaps.
Jake
65 comments:
Wow Claire certainly is particular about how she thinks. I think my days out the same way you do, so I really don't see anything wrong hitting a grocery store just after midnight.
She might of been testing you though, Mr. 30 year old dude might say he's super particular about things like that and so Claire might of been seeing if you were the same way or more lax.
I for one agree with you Jake. I was raised to have a little more of a broad view on keeping the Sabath. For example, I dont stay in my Sunday cloths all day and yes, I may just watch TV as well. I think most people have the right idea that it is, what you believe it to be, but there are some that are way to literal and hold it up like a sign so everyone knows that they do "exactly" what is right.
Really Jake? This is the girl you're crushing on? I should say something like "My dad's a seminary teacher and even we've run to the store on a Sunday". Does this mean she doesn't travel on Sundays for fear she will have to stop at a gas station? When we ALL know the best day to travel is on a Sunday.
I believe it's time to find a new crush....
You are right. She is RIDICULOUS. Does she think that shopping at 11:59 pm means those Smiths workers get to be home by the Sabbath? Give me a break. Sometimes we Mormons can be so stupid.
wow she sounds really arrogant. Thats how I do the sabbath. And I really dont think its wrong
I agree, she's ridiculous, running to the store at midnight on Sunday night seems much more like breaking the Sabbath than doing it at midnight on Saturday night.. plus, she's closed-minded - she won't even listen to your discussion because she thinks she already knows everything.
Ditch her :)
I feel like she is justifying her own shortcomings. I think it's worse to wait until midnight on sunday to eat then stay up late on saturday. That's just me though.
Simple solution: go to bed before midnight on both nights and this whole mess just goes away.
Ugh. Claire sounds like a complete and total Pharisee.
I observe it the same way you do, J - I, too, don't see the Sabbath day as starting until I've retired for the evening, and I think it's fairly legalistic to stay up until midnight on Sunday just to go hang out and spend money. I think that lifestyle choice is just as "questionable" as visiting Smith's after midnight on a Saturday, if not more so, because you were just at church earlier in the day.
But more importantly, I wouldn't judge her for making that decision, even if I think mine is preferable. As you pointed out, it's a matter of opinion and personal spiritual enlightenment. Her smug comment at the end would have made me slug her in her judgmental, self-righteous face. It's people like her who scare away would-be converts who feel as if they simply cannot measure up to such overwhelmingly sanctimonious expectations, and I despise that. Now *that*, I'll confess, I might be in danger of judging her for.
In sum, I am no longer pro-Claire :)
my favorite is how she is a stickler for midnight sabbath observance and judges you for your noncompliance yet "doesn't care for zoobies." uhh...self-righteous much?
For once I tend to agree with you, Jake. At least the people working at Smith's at 2am Saturday night can still be at home during the day on Sunday--BUT people working at midnight Sunday night don't start working at midnight, they probably start working at like 7pm Sunday. Amazing how Claire is doing the EXACT SAME THING but thinks you are in the wrong and she is in the right. You win this won, Jake. Try dating a girl your own age.
Haha. the funny thing is my friends and I were just talking about this. Saying you either do it on time or sleeping schedule. I am a freak though and for some reason do midnight till I go to sleep the next day. I just feel like it's the sabbath. haha. And I'm not super molly so it makes it funnier.
This made me laugh, mostly because I am the type that just doesn't care a lot of the time about certain things. Yeah, sure I try my hardest to keep the sabbath day holy, but there have been times that I just want a freaking soda and I go get myself one. It's wrong, yeah, but I doubt I will go to hell for it and if I do, then I was damned to hell LONG before that choice was made.
Once again I just have to laugh at the mentality of some LDS people. I would never fit in in Utah, even being a member of the church, because I just couldn't give a crap. I would seriously have no friends ha.
I see it the same way you do... it seems like such a double standard to get at you for going to the store after midnight on Sunday if you haven't gone to sleep yet and her waiting until 12:01. It's the same thing. I think, like you, that if you're consistent about it it shouldn't matter. There is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. There is no "letter of the law" with this commandment so we're left to stick with the spirit of it.
i think the same thing about the sabbath. you aren't the one bad sabbath day observer. in fact i know a few people... lol but i guess, i am from vegas and all. bahaaha
Isn't she kinda judging you? Which is equally just as bad as breaking the sabbath? just sayin.
You should have pulled out some "Letter of the Law" vs. "Spirit of the Law". What, does she still think she's supposed to follow the Law of Moses? I'm with you on this one. The Sabbath does not, by any means, end at midnight on Saturday.
Here's the real kicker. All of us (and by us, I mean Mormons) think that if we are out of the store by midnight, then we are not breaking the Sabbath and contributing to other people having to work on the Sabbath. But the kicker is that if you leave the store at 11:50 pm and the store closes at midnight - the people working there are still going to be there after midnight counting their registers, sweeping floors, stocking for the next day, etc. So, by that logic, you should shop earlier in the day and the store should close at 10 pm. But we know that won't happen.
All I'm saying is this: all this hub-bub about getting out of the store isn't honoring the Sabbath day at all. It is a justification for the fact that you weren't prepared enough to go to the store earlier in the day or week. And people still have to work on Sunday because you choose to shop there at 11:50 pm.
I definitely agree with you Jake, I just wanted to point out that the "letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law" argument isn't solid. The spirit of the law is higher than the letter of the law, and thus requires more than the letter of the law. For example, the letter of the law says not to murder, but the spirit of the law says to not even get angry.
I do go by the "when I got to sleep" rule, though. And I seriously doubt that ancient Jerusalem had digital watches so they could know exactly when it was allowable to got to IHOP.
I agree with you, Jake. My days start and end when I wake up and go to sleep. To me, going to Denny's at midnight is more breaking the Sabbath than going to the story at one am Sunday morning. Just sayin'
I am the saaaaame way! I consider Saturday over as soon as I go to bed. Bring on the grocery storeat 12:01!
I completely agree with you, Jake. But if I had things my way, the day would change at four in the morning. It's still late enough to go to bed, and there are people who wake up at four.
I realize we don't know her side of the story, but that sounds like one over-the-top mormon to me...
While I might not be so much now, I was raised Mormon and we NEVER were that ridiculously strict.
There are so many things to be strict about but making sure to be to the store and purchasing the item before midnight? Really?
hey! my roommate does the same thing as you! she stays up till 3am saturday/sunday night doing homework because she doesn't do homework on 'the sabbath'
i love this "sleep-to-sleeper" vs "midnight-to-midnighter." seriously, i'm with you 100% - consistency is the name of the game. but i'm a crummy sabbath observer anyway...what do i know? i'll have a ticket to hell with my sabbath day diet coke please :)
I've got to agree with Jake on this one.
I actually once worked at a grocer during the night shift. First, you're right, the Saturday 10PM-12AM time period is one of the busiest, so, surprisingly, is 12AM-2AM Monday.
But I digress, The 'Day' is whatever you perceive it to be as long as you're honoring it. Working those night shifts, morning was about 5PM for me then I had dinner that night at about 9AM.
I find agreeing to disagree very important. So many people decide that how they understand the gospel is the way everyone should and they'll never change. If you're honestly observing the commandments the way you believe you should, I don't see a problem.
Ditch Claire, If she's one of those types you'll never win because your opinion will be wrong. Opinions, by definition, cannot be wrong.
I'm actually with Claire. Sunday is Sunday. Not that I would beat myself up or feel like I was going to hell if there was something I totally needed to buy after midnight on Sunday. It happens. But it should be avoided. If you need groceries Saturday night, don't wait until after midnight on purpose because you think it's ok.
Also, I'm amazed that YOU'RE amazed by her feelings. Her way of thinking is NOT a crazy way to think (in fact, it's very logical) and if you really like her, you should respect that. If you're going to like/date/marry a good girl, you're probably going to have to put up with some "strict" commandment observance.
I don't think it's the next day until I go to sleep... therefore... two a.m. on saturday night (or sunday morning) is still saturday....
And two a.m. on Sunday night (or monday morning) is still Sunday....
FYI Claire is a zoobie she just doesn't know it yet.
Note to Claire - Jesus was the perfect example of spirit of the law vs. the letter. According to the law He "broke" the Sabbath multiple times (ie the wheat, healing the lame, and telling the healed man to "carry a burden").
Jake this relationship will never work.
i am with you on this one Jake. i also think that it is a personal decision, and not for anyone else but God to judge when we go to the store or not. i highly doubt that when this life is over, we will hear this "so.. looks like you were a good person.. you have given of your time and money, donated to charities, oh look, you even helped old women cross the streets. oh but wait just a minute. what is this? you went to the grocery store at 12:01 on sunday morning? this will not do. denied" i honestly think there are worse things that we could be doing. i know some people that seem to justify pushing the limit physically with a girl on any night of the week. but heaven forbid that they break the sabbath by shopping at midnight on sunday. i just don't get some people. to each his own i guess. my advice is this though, find someone that see eye to eye with you on those kinds of things. i didn't know if i would ever find a guy who would be okay with me hanging out and going to movies with my inactive family on sunday afternoons. that is important to me, and i want to be able to hang out with my family because we don't always get to other nights of the week. well i met a guy that was totally okay with that. and he even joins me. he loves my family, and he respects them even though they aren't active and shop on sunday. i think that you should respect claires feelings on the situation, but she should also respect yours. i don't know if i think you and claire are right for each other. but then i remember that you guys might be 31 year old dudes, and not sure if these stories are true or not...so i dunno. maybe disregard my advice...
I always thought as long as you're consistent and you respect the spirit of the sabbath, you're OK. Personally, I never go to bed before midnight, and 12:30 am feels like a continuation of whichever day preceded it--i.e. 12:30 am Sunday feels like Saturday night. 2:00 am Sunday feels like late Saturday night. On the other hand, I would be uncomfortable buying things at 12:30 am Monday because it would feel like Sunday night.
Woa, I'm appauled at her narrow-minded viewpoints.
P.S. She totally missed that she is your "favorite person" and still delved into how "right" she is. Yikes.
Come on, Claire, really??
I just gotta say that if shopping at 12:01am on the "Sabbath" is the worst thing you've done... I'm sure you're gonna be OK.
I'm definitely a "Day begins when I wake up" person.
oh i know plenty of people who have the same belief of keeping the sabbath day. i think if you are consistent then that is all that matters. just go on how you feel.
Um, I COMPLETELY agree with you! And technically you have a longer sabbath than her since your's isn't depicted by a clock. Rushing before midnight just makes the beginning of the sabbath stressful. Props for sticking up for yourself!
I agree with you Jake, but I know a lot of my friends in my ward have parents that inforce a rule like that, if we're out a Saturday night they have to be home by exactly midnight because we were "breaking the sabbath". I respect them, but sometimes it gets really annoying!
Does anyone else see the irony of pinning "the sabbath" to the Gregorian calendar?
Wow....you guys keep saying how judgemental Claire is but look at you, your judging Claire just because she's trying to do what she think is right.
nope. i totally agree with you. i think its a matter of how you are raised...but most important that you are consistent. she sounds like an extremely judgmental person if she cant see your point of view. freshman. whatever will we do with them...
These are the kinds of conversations I fear having when Hannah gets home... Ugh, I really don't want to deal with this.
I know "The Look." It's like when people say "Bless your heart" now-a-days. It screams "How adorable, but now I'll set you straight." I think that look drives me to the point where I lose my cool. Usually that ends with me making theoretical, ridiculous, yet seemingly air-tight argument.
If the Sabbath goes 12 AM to 11:59 PM Sunday then she can honor it that way. If you observe the Sabbath as when you wake until you go to bed then you can honor it that way. The worst thing about Claire's argument is that you're BOTH right, but she's still trying to prove that you're wrong.
Anyway, does God even observe "time?" The Sabbath is the 7th day, but Sunday isn't the 7th day everywhere.
isn't it funny how the blog seriously so bless just had pretty much the same give away haha its so obvious!
This one made me want to punch Claire in the face.
Duuuude. When I get into arguments like this, they end up with intense anger and yelling and sometimes, physical altercations... of several different forms. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. Depending.
But seriously. Wanted to punch her in the face. What a closed-minded goody two shoes. blech.
Jake, my husband and I have always done Sundays your way. And we consider ourselves to be faithful, commandment-keeping Mormons.
I had a very similar experience once. I sure did.
It's good to discuss things like this before you get serious in any relationship. My husband don't agree on some things and it totally sounded like your conversation with Claire. I can't tell you how important it is to find someone with the same opinions and what not. Otherwise, you'll fight, she'll get pissed and you won't get sex. Kinda sounds like the thing with Claire...minus the sex.
I definitely take issue with how people do or don't observe the Sabbath (judgemental yes- but my point is I've THOUGHT ABOUT THIS), and I'm on Team Jake for this one. And I founded my opinion on this EXACT situation in the past! Because I think that it is- like you said- so "trivializing" Sabbath observance to count down the minutes until Sunday is over and scoot out of the house to go to Denny's at 12:01am! So once I realized that that seemed so inappropriate- I haven't felt so bad getting some In-n-out at 12:30am "Sunday morning".
Maybe the best thing is to not disrespect the day at all and not buy things after midnight OR buy things after midnight on "Monday morning". But uh, I haven't made that decision on that one yet.
Mormons aren't real Christians, it's a cult. Sorry, but I'm just telling the truth.
I think that all these girls in the comments just want in your pants Jake. They pull the classic move and hate on the girl of the week.
If I can help going out after midnight on a Saturday night, I do. If I'm at an activity, or going horizontal with a girl, and it goes past midnight and I still need something at the store, I'm going to the store.
Maybe Claire is really Jewish and must obey the sabbath or she will be killed.
I bet she pays her tithing on the gross and not the net. Caffeine is in coffee and it is also in Coke so it is also a no no. If she takes the sacrament with her left hand and not her right hand, then her covenants are not renewed. Fasting for less than the alotted 24 hours will result in your prayers NOT being answered. And last but not least, if you don't know every word to "If You Could Hie to Kolob" then you are a substandard weak Mormon who doesn't understand deep doctrine.
Wow. You sound like a huge asshole. Regardless of the subject matter, if a guy treated me that way in ANY argument, I would no longer consider him worth speaking to. It's incredibly arrogant (not to mention not particularly valid in any way) to pull the "I'm-so-much-smarter-because-I'm-three-years-older" card. It's clear that you don't respect or listen to her viewpoints on anything. Why would any girl want to be with a guy who scoffs at her opinions? I certainly wouldn't.
All of the above comments are focusing on Claire's "ridiculous" opinion, when the truly appalling material in this post is the author's behavior.
Hey, anonymous, if you were wondering, the definition of a cult is, and I quote,
"a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc."
Therefore, every type of religion is, technically, a cult.
Sorry, but I'm just telling the truth.
Funny thing is, if Claire were Jewish she'd be following it closer to Jake's style, sundown to sundown.
mario brothers on your mission?
I'm surprised it wasn't atari.
stop pretending like you're not old.
Am I a horrible person if I'd go to the store after 12:01 am Sunday (not on purpose of course) and go get a beverage at 12:00 am Monday morning? I'm consistent in both ways so that's ok too right? haha
And Nicki is really funny :)
Dude, run away, far far away. Didn't she get the memo that the Gospel is based on principles? She can have fun living the law of Moses. And that smug, self-righteous, hypocritical attitude, geez...
Jake, you cowardly slug. This has nothing to do with how she views the observance of church doctrine and you know it.
How long have you known her, how long have you been excellent friends? Is this one small thing, a difference in observance of the sabbath so large as to ruin your friendship and kill how you like the girl?
You are just a coward and lazy. Too lazy to make things last with any other girl, too cowardly to reveal how you feel and too lazy to work at having a relationship with Claire, or anyone else for an extended period of time.
You are obviously posting this because your next post will be how you are dropping your idea of dating Claire, how you will stop being friends, and using this post as a spring board for it.
So no wonder you aren't married, you are too scared and frightened to have or keep anything meaningful.
You don't fool me for a second.
And by the way boys: "YOU HAVE ENTERED AN INVALID COUPON CODE (BACHELORPAD10OFF)"
It is Tuesday and the code still doesn't work. You guys are a sham.
Oh and to follow up, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." (Mark 2:27) You should drop that little bombshell on her...
I'm right there with ya on this one jake
I'm a midnighter myself, but I don't think going to ice cream midnight on sunday is right either... that means the people have been working through Sunday night, right?
I totally agree with you. Her view sounds like she's one of those ultra-orthodox jews who will not take more than 1000 steps on a given day (and so to circumvent breaking that law in their religion, they ultimately invented the 'clap-on'). I don't agree with going out to Denny's at 12:01 after the technical Sunday has ended.
Some peoples kids, that's all I can say!
Ok, so I am not a Mormon and I don't know much about it (besides reading this blog). However, I am a religious person & there are issues in my church that people do not agree on. It sounds to me like this is a logistical rule. If Claire can approach God without a guilty conscience obeying the 12:01-12:01am rule, then that works for her. If she feels like she is sinning following the sleeping-sleeping rule, then let her do the other way! Just like Jake can follow the sleeping-sleeping rule if is what his conscience needs. Clearly, if Claire and Jake want to follow different technical practices, but still have their heart in the same intention to obey & follow the Law, then what is the issue?
claire sounds narrow-minded. she might be the kind of woman that is really hard to live with. her way or the highway...at such a young age, too.
i look at it like, either way you choose to observe is a personal preference. and by the way, i have been to smiths on those saturday nighs and the lines are so long i am usually unable to finish CHECKOUT by midnight. so, what's the call on that one, claire? should i put my food down and walk out at midnight?
Nothing good happens after 11pm, if we all had better sleeping patterns we wouldn't have to worry about shopping before or after midnight on a Saturday.
WHOA. Judgmental much?? On both accounts???
You follow the commandments as YOU understand them, and don't judge others for following them differently.
Even if they break every single commandment known to man, you still don't judge them.
That's what Christianity [including and especially Mormonism] teaches, right?? And didn't Elder Uchtdorf just talk about not being judgmental in conference a few weekends ago???
CALM DOWN people, sheesh.
Personally Jake, I'm with you on the whole shopping-on-Sunday thing. But there's SO much more to "keeping the Sabbath Day holy" than just not going to the store or out to eat.
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