I've heard this word more in the last couple of months than I ever have in my life. I'll be honest. I had to look it up the first time it was used in a comment on our blog. Up until I accessed Dictionary.com, whenever I heard the word I would think, "What is a Nist... and why does everyone want to massage it so badly?" I thought about dedicating an entire post to addressing each individual concern that was brought up after my Calvin's Deal Breakers post (and I still might), but I decided instead to just make fun of everyone who used the word "misogynist" to describe Jake and I.When I had to give my first talk in Sacrament Meeting when I was nine years old, I remember my dad telling me that a lot of people read definitions from the dictionary as part of their talk. He suggested it might be a good idea and it would burn seconds from my talk that I wouldn't have to fill with meaningful material. I considered it, but ultimately decided against it. At the age of nine I remember feeling like reading a definition from a dictionary seemed so juvenile. Now, I chuckle to myself when I see my peers reading definitions at the pulpit. Really, guys? You think I actually care what Merriam Webster says about the word "testimony"? C'mon! Put a little thought into your talk for goodness sake.
I'm going against my own sound judgment right now, but I really have no choice. I've looked a lot of places for a definition of "misogynist" that actually describes me or anything I've typed. Some of you might think you actually know the definition... which would explain your ignorance in using the word so frequently. "Hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women". That's the definition. Everyone who thinks our blog is embracing, condoning, or encouraging misogynist ideals is an idiot. The only time a misogynist thought has ever even entered my head was when I was reading through the blog comments. I can't even tell you how often I whispered to myself, "How can people be so stupid?"
I found my answer to that question. People just like to be offended. People look for reasons to be pissed. For example, I could have typed a three paragraph disclaimer and then typed the following sentence: Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. Followed immediately by another paragraph explanation of what that sentence means. But still the majority of people would conveniently skip everything except that one single sentence. And because their defenses are up and they're looking for a reason to be offended, they probably wouldn't notice or even care that the bold sentence is a direct quote from The Family: A Proclamation to the World.
Sure, everyone wants to expound on what they think this sentence means. They want to say, "Oh but what about [blah blah blah]" or "But you skipped the part where it says [blah blah blah]". But I ask you, does any additional explanation or background make that sentence any less true? No it does not. It might help others to understand more fully what our church leaders are trying to say, but the sentence BY ITSELF is still true no matter how much detail you pack around it. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.
Are there exceptions to this rule? Of course there are. But when God commanded "Thou shalt not kill" he also made a few exceptions to that rule as well, didn't He? "Thou shalt not kill... unless you're defending your family... or maybe if I ask you to lop someone's head off or something."
What saddens me the most is the alarming number of women who think they are an exception to this counsel. They have chosen to live a lifestyle that requires two incomes and they use their current financial situation as an excuse to give their children to a babysitter or daycare center all day long. "Well, I have to work in order to provide for my family." Oh really? Do you have cable? Do you drive new(er) vehicles? Do you buy name-brand cereal? Guess what, sister? Being home with your kids is more important than having the Disney Channel and a flat screen TV. And it ALWAYS WILL BE. How about you move into a cheaper house, sell one of your cars, buy a bus pass, and shop at Deseret Industries so you can raise your own children and not ditch them with someone else.
I'm not going to bother going through all of the exceptions to the Church's policy. I hope things like "single mothers" and "disabled fathers" are situations I don't need to delve into. But I'm sure there will be some morons who try to make that argument in their comment.
So feel free to leave a three paragraph comment (that we actually DO read) and tell me how wrong I am and how right you are. Please. I can't wait.
Calvin
"You were not created to be the same as men. Your natural attributes, affections, and personalities are entirely different from these of a man. They consist of faithfulness, benevolence, kindness, and charity. They also balance the more aggressive and competitive nature of man. The business world is competitive and sometimes ruthless. We do not doubt that women have both the brain power and the skills to compete with men. But by competing they must of necessity, become aggressive and competitive. Thus their godly attributes are diminished and they acquire a quality of sameness with man. The conventional wisdom of the day would have you be equal with men. We say, we would not have you descend to that level."
-President Ezra Taft Benson
103 comments:
I like this a lot.
I like this a lot.
I really think that this issue is similar to the one that Jake wrote about Claire. They BOTH were trying to keep a commandment and they BOTH went about it in a completely different way. Your definition of this commandment may be different from someone else's but if you are both doing your best to keep a commandment who can really judge? In my opinion your post was full of narrow minded judgements which is why people had such a tizzy fit over it. I think that too often we as Latter Day Saints think that OUR way is the best way to keep the commandments when the truth is there are lots of good ways to keep commandments.
Like to the above comment. I also actually approve of this post, generally. But I do find irony in you making this sniffy, defensive post about how all you have for women is a noble aspiration for them to fulfill their divine role...
In defense of the post in which you called a number of women bitches and lesbians for not agreeing with your way of keeping the commandments.
Boo hoo, how could we misunderstand that as misogynistic? Women are so stupid, indeed. I won't deny that taking offense is a choice people make, but it's a little different for women to take offense at this post than it was for them to be offended that you thought career women are selfish, horrible people. I believe you also discouraged women from having goals other than motherhood?
Haha I'm sort of laughing at myself for becoming one of your three paragraph commentators right now. However, my opinion stands - don't kvetch about being misunderstood when you say things that have an undercurrent (and occasionally more than that) of "Women should do nothing more in their adult lives than have children. Women shouldn't ever want to do anything more than that." Because whether you intended it or not, that kind of sounds like, "Women are only good for popping out babies."
Which is kind of misogynistic, FYI.
All of this said to clearly distract us female readers from the fact that your little 10% discount code for Shabby Apple still doesn't work. And ain't it mighty convenient the woman in charge of the giveaways at Shabby Apple is on Maternity Leave, so no one can find out if your giveaway is legit or not.
Chauvinistic pigs.
first, to lighten the mood, a limmerick:
there once was a big to do
over calvin and jake, who was who?
what would all those girls do
that didn't have a clue...
mormonbachpad losts readers by the slew!
anyway.
no matter how desperately you want people to agree with you, calvin, people have different definitions of the word nurture. that sentence, all by its self, with no other context STILL means different things to different people. for you, "nurture" means a stay at home mother, for others "nurture" means something else. for instance, for TAMN, "nurture" means buying a lot of crap.
both of you, (suspending our belief enough to pretend tamn is real,) read the same sentence, and both of you interpret it differently because nurture means something differently to you.
i don't think being primarily responsible for the nurture of my (future) children mandates becoming a stay at home mom. i just know too many excellent working mothers (who live in modest homes and drive the same crap cars i do) to believe that.
but, you do, and thats okay. the nice thing about the church is there really is enough room for everyone, even the tamns.
I bet this post will get more comments than any post yet. Good job, C.
ha, I love your controversial posts.
You do' realize that no had any of these 'Misogynist' concerns that you had, and I doubt you are under any impression that this poost will change anyone's minds.
As whyimstillsinglw said, you only write this for the comments.
And being that it is fairly obvious that this is for the comments, to get people riled up, my question is how much of this is really what you think? No need to answer, we know you won't tell the truth, and I doubt we will ever truly know the answer.
Like. Like. A thousand times like! I know this probably makes me one of those stupid little fans and people will think I am just agreeing to impress you, but I really do agree. I have fought with myself for a long time over this and I came to the conclusion that if I am not home to take care of my children and make them feel loved and teach them how to be Christlike, who will? I don't trust anyone in the world enough to teach my children the most important lessons they need to learn. It's my divine calling for a reason and, regardless of how the world looks at it, I am going to embrace it and live up to it.
I really don't understand why women like to be offended so easily. I was raise with all brothers, if you had a problem, punch them and get over it. Done.
I have to work part time at the moment and will leave no justifications why, because there are none. It kills my husband that he can't provide fully yet and is trying everyday to work towards that. It hurts me when moms find out that I work and say, "That would be so great to have a break from your children a few days a week." I don't want a break, I want to be home and every women that complains about being a stay at home mom doesn't know how good she has it! She doesn't have to think about her child with someone else and wonder does he get the love that I would give him? Sucks!
I get what you are saying. Here's my perspecitve on this topic. Nearly all of my LDS friends who are girls have careers or at least got the education necessary to start a career. ALL of them, plan to (they are childless at the moment) or do stay home with their children with the option to return to their careers when the kids are older or they leave the home. Yes their primary role in life is the nurture the children but it's not their only role.
"I found my answer to that question. People just like to be offended. People look for reasons to be pissed."
Word.
Honestly that is one part of the church that seriously upsets me. I think that a man can stay home with the children and they will be raised just fine. I won't go into how much I really don't agree with what you have said or what the doctrine says but I think there are MANY MANY exceptions to the rule. I would also like to say that I do not think y'all are being misogynist in your posts... people who say that must not really understand what that means!
you and jake seem completely opposite as far as keeping the commandments goes. you seem very strict in your interpretation and observance of the proc on the fam, while jake will find any way he can to get away with breaking the sabbath and belittling those that disagree with him.
I am a stay at home Mom and interpret this commandment the same way you do. But I disagree with how you speak about and to women.
the thing is, Ezra T Benson, didn't use swear words. he didn't encourage us to not care about getting an education because making babies was all we are good for.
referring to women as, lesbians, b****, fat or ugly is hateful!
if you're going to quote prophets, maybe you should start acting like them and stop belittling people.
You sure like to open a can of worms don't ya? Thank you for giving me a giggle for the day. As I was reading all I could think of was all the ways people (girls) are going to utterly and completely misconstrue this. Have fun reading the comments.
Couldn't agree with my 2 cents more. You pick and choose which quotes you want to throw out here for comments and feedback only. While you're looking for a quote on motherhood, look up Spencer W. Kimball's talk "Our sisters in the church". You're the worst example ever of anything important. How would you expect anyone to take you seriously??? I agree with women being having the nurturing role in the family and I feel very blessed to be able to stay at home with our baby, BUT you are the last person that should be throwing out quotes about motherhood. Douche.
I completely agree a thousand times over. There really is NOTHING more important than a woman raising her own children. NOTHING. "But I won't feel fulfilled." Bull. Try it, it's the busiest, most interesting job out there! You get to see little miracles grow up!
What it really comes down to, though is prayer. If you and your husband are struggling financially, pray and ask what to do.
Also, just something to think about... how many women's patriarchal blessings speak of being great career women? I'm willing to bet... none. I'm also willing to bet that almost all women have something about being a righteous mother in Zion. Just saying. It's kind of a big deal.. and definitely a full time job.
I wonder if Calvin's mom stayed at home and raised him. Judging from the way he turned out, I doubt it. Maybe he is so passionate about this because he got screwed.
You gave a talk in sacrament meeting while you were still in Primary? Don't you usually have to give your first talk at 12, after you are in YM/YW?
Haha, I am totally taking the bait on this one. I have lots of ideas about this topic, but I'll save my efforts for my own blog.
I just want to respond to Annie Citrine about the PB issue. My PB actually does specifically mention the importance of my career and even gives me advice on how to choose the best one for me. Good thing you didn't actually bet on it, Annie.
There is no set answer for everyone.
That's all.
Alright, I feel like I can actually weigh-in here as a stay at home mom with experience. I have seven children (my three oldest are adopted.) I have never understood the reasoning behind having children and then sending them off for 9 to 10 hours a day for someone else, who does not have the same moral convictions or who could never care or love my children as much as I do, to raise.
We live in a smaller but very nice home. We have always driven used vehicles. My children do not get to play every sport or participate in every activity that is out there but we spend time together as a family.
All of that to say... Calvin, I stand with you in agreement on your soap box.
I couldn't agree with this post more.
Yowza. This post was definitely crafted for controversy.
Enjoy boys.
Well said. I really liked what you had to say in this post. Too bad so many women believe they are above the law.
I love how people don't understand the concept of opinions.
Everyone has their own, and shouldn't push theirs on other people. Yes, we might disagree with what they have to say, but this is MBP's blog where they write what they want to. So stop trying to go all self-righteous on them and keep your opinions to yourself.
I am pretty sure I have said this before but, if I wasn't married, or if I had loose morals, I would totally kiss ya for this post.
See what you do to me?
This was a GREAT post. I know there are circumstances that require a mother to not be home with her kids, but at all cost (cable, cars, etc) they should be at home with their babies. Ah yes I could go on and on about this...but I won't.
This post rocked my socks off.
I really REALLY loved this post. (and not that it matters, but I'm speaking as an LDS single mother of 5 who has been on both sides of the spectrum so to speak)
Really really love this point and I'm of the same mindset, Calvin. Well done.
cassie lynne -
you make a good point about people not understanding the concept of opinons and that we all have a different one and shouldn't force our opinons on others.
and then because you don't agree with someone's opinon you tell them to keep their opinon to themself.
apparently you are one of those people that do not understand the concept of opinions.
if mbp wanted people to keep their opinions to themselves, then they wouldn't accept comments. plus calvin is totally sounding self righteous and trying to force his opinions on others.
you are a walking contradiction.
Wow. I think you are right. People like to get offended by things, and that's totally reinforced by reading the comments. I really just wanted to comment that I heard a general authority say once that if you think you are the exception to the rule, then you had better be as sure of it as Nephi was when he killed Laban.
People who take your blog seriously need to get a life. And women offended by it need to get a little self confidence.
I didn't bother to read all of the above comments because most of them are obnoxious anyway. Just throwin out the idea that I think the people who disagree and choose to get offended also tend to be the loud ones. So just because us more quiet readers don't comment on every single thing you say, doesn't mean we aren't reading and enjoying. We just don't care about making sure the whole world knows our opinion. If I found your blog offensive, I wouldn't read. So for now,carry on, boys.
I was pretty offended by your "dealbreakers" but the fact that you actually defended and explained in this post, I have to agree with it. My view on this whole subject? It is the woman's responsibility to stay home with the children and raise them. If your husband cannot completely provide, then go work, and don't have children yet. Work until it is possible to live off one income. Get an education BEFORE having kids. And then, when you're children are at school all day, go get a part time job. When they get old enough where you can no longer "raise" them, go work a fulltime job. But when it comes to raising them and while they still learn from you, STAY HOME. The only reason I would ever work and leave my children in the hands of someone else, is if my husband left me, or died. And I want to do it right the first time, so him leaving me shouldn't even be an option. I agree with you for the most part, C. Way to start another multiple comment topic.
I agree that it is the mothers job to stay at home with her kids.
I'm just curious as to your feelings on mothers who are nurses. If someone with a nursing degree doesn't practice her skills at least once a week she will find it hard to get a job once her kids have grown up. My mother also did this except she worked in interior design. She stayed at home because she felt it was the right things to do, but what my brother and I grew up she found that she would never be able to get a job in her chosen field because everthing that was once done by hand was now done on autoCAD. It lead to some depression in her life.
I would like to know how you feel about a mother working once a week to stay caught up with technology.
I guess this doesn't bother me because we are going to do what my husband and I want regardless of what everyone else says or what anyone else might do. That said, I do agree with you and am pretty sure I will stay at home with my kids. Do I care if anyone else does the same? Not even a little. I'm a big fan of doing what's right for you and your family and not worrying about what everyone else thinks.
AMEN!!
You got it man, no matter what people tell you. Anyone who disagrees with that is dumb. :)
why do you think utah is leading in anti-depressants? its because everyone needs a life. ya your children are important, but your wife still needs a degree. you never know whats gna happen with your job, or with anything. your relationship is a team effort, and if a woman wants to work hell let her work. I don't think your opinion should be so close-minded, think outside the box man.
What about moms who have an at-home job? I'm an illustrator and do my work from home. And I never plan discontinuing my art, its my gift.
To Annie Citrine-
I am a woman and my patriarchal blessing goes into specific details about the job that I would have after my focus on education. It has helped me find the right degree and then to the right job.
I guess I can weigh in:
First off, I do believe mothers should be the ones to raise their own children. My father died when I was young so that last year before kindergarten and my first year of school my mom had to work to support my sister and I. It was necessary, yet I still feel like missing out on those important growing up times with my mom has kept us from ever having a closer relationship than we currently have.
Second, I think the most important word of that sentence you quoted "Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children." is "Mothers" it doesn't say "women." I think a lot of people read this and in their minds think woman's only responsibility is to raise children. I've always been attracted to ambitious women, I won't lie, when a 20 year-old girl is cruising through life because "she can't wait to be a mother" I get a little scared and run away. Not that I don't respect mothers, but because I think there are so many experiences in life to have before you have kids that you can later pass on to your children.
Of course once you have children they should be your first priority, but until then live life! Don't waste that time between high school and marriage waiting to be a wife/mother, the more life experience you can pass on to your kids the better they be.
Autumn:
Plans change. When first married my husband was going to go to medical school, we finished our bachelors degrees together. I choose health degree that pays $30 an hour fresh out of school so I could support our family while in medical school without going a million dollars in debt. Guess what? My husband found out he didn't like sick people...not a good thing for a doctor. Finished his undergrad in what he started. So here we are with $70,000 student loans and my husband can only get a job for $14.00 an hour. I always said we wouldn't have children until we could live off one income, but wait another 10-15 years? Not going to happen. So for now I work to pay off student loans, once they are paid off, I get to be a full time mommy! Life doesn't always happen how you plan, don't be the judge with all the answers. Oh, and when kids get older they just need more raising not less.
your dealbreakers are your own business. i personally agree with this post. although i also believe that every woman should have a degree and some work experience before having children.
i once dated a guy who never told me i would work outside the home if we were to marry. but i could tell he was expecting it just by the way he went about his career choices and some of the comments he made. it was as if he wasn't living up to his OWN potential as a man and the provider because he knew i was capable of a very decent living as well. AND i think he was looking for a woman who wanted to work outside the home. very sad. and this was MY dealbreaker in the relationship. i expected my husband to go out and work as hard as he can for our family so that i can stay home. yes, i am capable of working and i have a degree and a lot of work experience. but i hope it's not necessary for me to work until later in life. and that's my opinion and my choice.
and as for the anonymous, i think the the reason utah is the leading state in antidepressants is for other reasons...like "keeping up with the joneses" which we all know is impossible. that's just one reason...
Way to stick to your guns, Calvin.
I totally agree with you.
I'm completely on board with mothers staying at home with their children. I'm married, and when I have children, I'll be staying at home with them even if it means changing our lifestyle to fit my husband's income. However, I don't think it is your job or anyone else's on this earth to judge a person's circumstances as to whether you think they should be allowed to work outside of the home. You don't really know if they have chosen that lifestyle. You don't really know all that went in to that decision.
I think a lot of what bothers people about your blog is your tone. It reads demeaning a lot of the time, which I don't really think you intend for it to sound that way. I actually liked your deal-breakers post. Everyone has those few things that you just can't have in the girl you are going to spend ETERNITY with. Girls are the queens of having a huge long list of everything their future husband has to have. No one would bat an eye if a girl said that she wants a husband who "presides over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families." But for a guy to say that they want a woman that will stay home and bring up their children in love....thats appalling! Yet both of those roles are clearly stated in the Proclamation. Imagine if a father said, "NO, I don't want to be the one that has to go out and work, I just wanna stay home with my kids!" We would probably call them lazy and bad fathers/providers.
Here are my 3 paragraphs (and then some). enjoy.
I completely agree with you that mother's should do what it takes to be at home with their babies. But I am a hypocrite and for my own selfish reason's I want nice things and I want to be independent and working, and I do feel guilt for wanting those things.
I personally feel that being home with a child all day would drive me completely insane, so for their sake and safety...I need a job, a hobby of sorts.
They won't grow up to be emotionally bruised or criminals if they are being baby sat half the day.
Either way, you and your family will find a way to make things work for you!
If you think that working mothers do not provide primary nuture and care you are sorely mistaken. As a man, you can never truly know the love of a mother - one who works or doesn't. You also never seem to take into account that a woman might not be working just to support her family or because she likes fancy things (often its the men who don't want to be without the flat screen tv and fancy car), but oh, I don't know, maybe some women work because she likes it, it's fulfilling, and allows her the energy and sanity to provide the nuture her children require. Oh, and I love the Benson quote - like I would take advice from a raving lunatic who was both racist and paranoid.
Dear Calvin -
Thank you for always reminding me why I choose to no longer participate in the LDS religion. Reading your blog always reminds me of the "mormon" way of thinking about things, and the mormon doctrine that backs it all up.
It's always good to be regularly reminded of why I never want to go back, or raise my own daughter in a religion with members that have such a "limited" way of thinking.
Both myself and my husband work (gasp), but if one of us were to stay home, it would be him. He is the better parent. He plays barbies, light saber fights, and loves spending time with our kids.
Men are just as capable at nurturing their children, and those who choose not to are either lazy or just don't care enough about their kids.
Its nice you have a quote from the proclamation to excuse your own bad parenting some day.
Thanks,
regular reader
Can I just say, I love this blog. I have never found it offensive or been upset by anything that was written. I find it highly funny and a glimmer of light to my dark, boring days at work. Keep posting, I'll keep reading.
I'm a huge fan of this post. Thanks so much for talking about it - I had to post about it on my own blog since it's such a good reminder.
I agree with that quote, when my son turned one I decided to go back to work. For the first month I felt powerful. like "I have my money I can do what I want" and "you have to cook and clean because I am making money." it made me lazy at the job that I find MOST important. By the end of the second month it made me resentful that I had to leave my baby everyday. By the third month I quit. I don't live the "glamorous" life that some of my 2 income friends have but we are happy.
-Carly
This post is sad. Like what has been said in the comments, a woman can be completely loving, nurturing, happy, healthy and working. But do whatever you feel you want to do. Judge yourself before you judge others and dont pretend you know what its like to be in someone elses position. I work. I'm a mom. My child is great! My husband and I love her more than anything. She will get the love she needs, even if she is away from either of us for 8 hours a week.
I love it when the psuedo-feminists come out of the closet and profess misogynism. Everybody knows the biggest hater of women is women. No one is more demeaning to the stay at home mom than highly educated feminists who should rally behind women no matter how they choose to live. Everyday I get comments and emails about how stay at home moms should keep their uneducated opinions to themselves. Sound misogynistic? Hell yes and who is it throwing around the insults, of course, women 100% of the time. A man would never dare say such a thing in this day and age. I find most women who hug feminism are really quite unfamiliar with true feminism. Powerful women are not powerful because of their education and career. They are powerful because they can choose for themselves what is right for them and heaven forbid their family. Equality for women in society is not about men taking on some dish washing in the home. How narrow the minds of these arrogant career minded women. Selfish products of the Oprah ME generation.
A man who holds true to the traditional family along with his wife are no more Little House on the Prairie than Gloria Steinham. Such falsehoods being taught in our Universities to women are fabrications of women who want to be men and not feminists who understand its true meaning. I stay home with my ONE child because this world is dangerous and it will be me who protects him...PERIOD. So take your degrees and careers and shove them up your ass. And shove mine up there as well. Modern day orphanages are day care centers.
:)
Hi.
I'm a newer follower and I actually like your blog. I am getting married soon, but I understand how annoying dating drama can be and how absurd girls are as well.
I feel bad that you guys get so many negative comments all the time. If people are so upset about the things you write about maybe they should just stop reading. I think that your stories and feelings are, not only hilarious, but also very insightful.
You seem like some very responsible and down to earth guys and I really liked this post. It makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks
I agree!!! I Agree!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! So many people are selfish and think of their own needs before and after having kids. IF YOU AREN'T going to raise them, DON'T HAVE THEM!!! Moms need to be home. They should do EVERYTHING in their power to do so!
I think the women who oppose this post are ones who have not yet had their own children. I am a very driven, very ambitious woman. I achieved many great things in professional career. When I first became pregnant I was worried about leaving my career. I LOVED my job and had worked so hard in college, etc. to accomplish my goals.
However, once that baby came, everything changed. I felt more fulfilled in my duty as a mother than any other thing I had ever done in my life. No honors, plaques, awards or recognition, mean as much to me as his sweet smile.
I feel content. My house could burn down, I would give up all my worldly possessions and life would still be good.
Well, you know people are always going to disagree with you. That's not new. Many of the people that have commented about different ways to interpret/opinions about what nurturing means. For years the prophets have spoken about this. I believe that "Mother's, come home" is pretty self-explanatory. There are plenty of tiny ways to stray from that, but they are still straying from it.
Here's an example using brownies: When I was little I would cut a very thin line down the width f the brownies so my mom couldn't tell that I had some. I still was disobeying her command to not eat any. Was it enough to spoil my dinner? No, but that's not really the point.
Alyssa Coles is right. Working at home on things like art or whatever is ok. She can easily set aside what she is doing to go take care of a child.
Women still have their choice. I still have my choice to buy all the electronic toys I want. I still have the choice to not do my best in providing for a family. But I don't have a choice in the consequences. I guess it's all about hedging your bet. Is it worth it to you to take the risk with specific prophetic teachings replete with direct counsel and warnings? It's not worth it to me.
But you probably should say it in a nicer way. But, then again, people wouldn't follow a blog that doesn't stir up something.
Definately agree with the principles of this post. I agree with people's comments.
However.
I don't understand how Calvin, and commenters, communicate their opinions in a way that clearly contradicts what they are arguing for.
'How about you move into a cheaper house, sell one of your cars, buy a bus pass, and shop at Deseret Industries so you can raise your own children and not ditch them with someone else.'
Things aren't always black and white. I agree with the essentials of what you're saying. But who are you to be able to say it in such a way?
Then there are the commenters.. who say that Calvin should focus on all the righteous words of the prophets, followed by things like..
'You're the worst example ever of anything important.'
Ouch.
Interesting no?
Gosh golly, thanks for clearing that up for me! If only I'd get rid of those multiple car loans, move somewhere cheaper, disconnect the dish, and....oh. Wait. I don't have any of those things.
Well, I guess we could quit paying the mortgage, shut the electric off, and see how long we last without heat in the dead of winter....or we could continue to both work while sharing the childcare.
Hmmm...decisions, decisions...
Nikki= THE.MOST.ANNOYING.GRANDMA.EVER!
i am not lds nor a feminist but i am a (not for long) full time working mother...i am not here to argue your post, but i think this is an issue that each family needs to decide what is right and what works for them...and if that means two working parents than that is their prerogative...
however as for my family in 5 weeks i will be a full time stay at home mom and while i am very nervous to step out of the comfort zone of being a dual income family i am out of my mind excited to give my ladies 100% of me...
Calvin, I wholeheartedly agree. Although, while you do not "hate, dislike or mistrust women" (although I think mistrusting women is not necessarily a bad thing) you can sound as though you objectify them a little bit. But, frankly, I dont really care because I'm not one of them... unfortunately. Haha I like this post though. Though I want a career to fall back on, my primary responsibility and goal in life is to raise my family in the church. And, that is how it should be.
I agree, people choose to be offended by what you write. It's not like you're specifically attacking them.
I agree with the statement that mothers are responsible for the nurturing of children, but I also think that the role of fathers in the home should not be lessened. Raising children is a team effort, and the talents of both parties are needed. I think in the Church, we tend to focus on the role of women as mothers a lot, which isn't bad, but the role of fathers could be better emphasized. I also think that women should be able to pursue interests other than those that directly relate to homemaking and raising kids; people are multifacted, and they should not be sandwiched into one or two particular role(s). From my experience, having outside interests makes women better mothers. They can relate to people on multiple levels, and can teach their children the things they have learned. The same goes for men.
In your deal breakers, you mentioned that you don't want a girl that wants a career. I think that your preferences are completely up to you, but I would refrain from judging single women who are pursuing higher education. Just because a woman is in graduate school or professional school does not mean that she does not want a family. In fact, higher female education is linked to lower divorce rates and higher achievement in children. Also, single women must confront the reality that they may have to provide for themselves, and graduate schooling and a professional career may be necessary to provide an income to live.
Just something to think about.
So here is the question that I would love for you to answer: do you think that getting an education conflicts with a woman's primary role of nurturing her children, because THAT is what your deal breaker post seemed to suggest (your words - "if you're in school right now, it had better be because you are trying to keep yourself busy while you're waiting for me to find you and propose"), and I think THAT is what many women took issue with, and if THAT is what you are proposing, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on. Not one word in the Proclamation supports that kind of opinion, and tons of quotes from prophets reject it.
But by all means, if you were just poorly inarticulate in your "deal breaker" post, I'd love to hear your REAL opinion on women and education.
And for the record, the Oxford English Dictionary also defines "misogynist" as one who is prejudiced against women, so the ample opinions that you have that show stupid bias or prejudice against women (like opinions that school is only useful to keep women busy until they can be so lucky as to marry someone like you) do in fact fall under the definition of a misogynist.
P.S.
I still want that dress.... :P
Sounds like your running out of good "juicy" drama... too bad.
Now your just trying to get a reaction.... I therefore don't feel the need to address my opinion on the subject. :P
Here's to hoping the next one is more juicy. No pressure. haha
Really women can do whatever they want. I knew girls who were stay at home moms at 19/20 and that's what they wanted to do(not really my type though). Others want to go to school and work, which is also cool. I think if you look at it closely there are advantages to being raised by both types.
However, my one strong belief is you have to have some sort of aspirations or hobbies. Otherwise, when you're an empty-nester, you have nothing. Then dementia sets in...
I think I just fell in love with you.
Amazing post.
Who the crap are you to go around writing posts like this seeing how you are single men without families? Unless you are really those other creepy older guys who pose as young guys.
I happen to be a stay at home mom who gave up a very fulfilling career which happens to be the hardest thing I have ever done, so no you did not offend me- but in defense of those mother's who either choose not to, are not supported by there husbands to be able to stay at home or simply truly can't afford it- don't judge until you've got even a tinsy bit of a clue what it's like. Some mom's are better mom's if they work outside the home and a healthy mom is a much better mom then a crazy mentally unstable one. Perfect example of church members going off judging other's that make people leave or dislike the church. Leave the interpreting the the General Authorities boys. Lame post- you could've just glorified the stay at home mom instead of stomping on the mom's that don't because even if they do have a legitimate reason to work, you just made them feel like shiz.
For real, what gives you the right to judge? You could've equally made your point by glorifying stay at home mom's but instead you had to turn it into some overly judgemental, negatively charged posts. PS what the H do you even know about stay at home moms? That's great that your mom stayed home but until you are married and have kids, don't go around judging other people's decisions. I happen to have left a very fulfilling career to be a stay at home mom so no, you didn't offend me. But to every mom who doesn't have the option whether legitimate by your standards or not, you just stomped all over her face. Leave the interpreting up to the general authorities. I'd dare say all the girls who just love your post are the ones with no ambition :)
I like this post. My goal in life is to be a stay at home mom. I believe that women should go to college and receive an education, but ultimately a woman's place to be is in the home. This isn't a bad thing! Men and women are different for a reason and God made us that way on purpose. We compliment each other and each contribute different, valuable talents to the family. Men are meant to provide and women to nurture. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, as with almost any rule, but ultimately being a stay at home mom should not be frowned upon and I think the fact that Calvin wants his wife to be a mother is great.
Now, maybe as a convert I'm totally off base and missed something that you and Annie Citrine learned in primary, but I was under the impression that
1. patriarchal blessings are not to be thrown around for general information. Annie Whoever should probably have left that part out of her comment, since she has no way of knowing other the content of other girls'- and you can add mine to the list of evidence that she lost her bet.
and
2. You aren't the appointed scorekeeper of other peoples' life choices. Last time I checked, you're supposed to judge not lest ye be judged.
That being said, I don't get the impression that you actually care so much about winning a gender role argument so much as you do about demonstrating how quickly people get pissed off. So post whatever you want about your own opinions, because clearly this is your blog and that's an appropriate forum for it, but don't get a stick up your ass when you throw down a judgment call and the people you're judging (like me) get pissed off. There's a big difference between someone being unnecessarily dramatic and someone being hurt because you're issuing "good Mormon" "bad Mormon" labels when you have no right to do so.
I think my problem with posts such as these is that you assert a mother should stay home. I guess I can call myself a feminist...but that just means I think women should be given the option to choose. I think it's all about what works for you and your family. You want your wife to stay home and some of the readers of the blog don't want to...I guess you can both scratch each other off your potential spouses list.
Would some of you say that you're glad you're not Catholic anymore because of a blogger like Calvin (if he were Catholic like you?) Probably not. The are asses like Calvin in any religion that have narrow minded views and that don't understand real-life situations.
Don't judge or generalize the LDS people and faith based off of this stupid blog.
I want to say that I like this post, but then I feel like people will hate me. Commenting here is always so scary!!
But I liked this post. :)
Perhaps your best work Calvin. I'm starting to think I say that everytime I comment on one of your posts... so I suppose it keeps getting better.
I'm surprised how many people are ripping on you for being narrow minded and "requiring" anything of anyone. As I recall this stemmed from your "Deal Breaker" post.
One of my deal breakers was girls who laughed louder than me... I'm such a narrow minded ass so unfamiliar with the world I suppose... because, I have a preference.
Another thing is that in your deal breakers post you said 3 or more of those was a deal breaker. So by your own admission you would be open to marrying a girl with a career so long as she didn't also doodle on herself and love Kenny Chesney.
I don't think there is a truly misogynistic thing on this blog, I do think you guys purposely push buttons as a joke, but it's obvious to me that like most of us men you guys worship women.
Deanna,
You really need to preface your comment by noting you are an EX-MORMON. That means you left the Mormon Church. Your opinion is biased by your choices and therefore unreliable.
As far as your argument goes, how can a mother be the primary nurturer of her children when children are only awake 12 hours a day and 9 of them are spent with a daycare provider? Unless Mommy works at the daycare center, someone else is taking care of those kids. Or, in the case of the 2-year-old who was recently left alone on a daycare bus for several hours, the poor kid is stuck taking care of himself. I sure hope Mom's job is "fulfilling" enough to make up for that.
And for the record, Benson was neither racist, nor paranoid, nor a lunatic. Go back to Church.
Anon 3:20: Aren't your opinions also biased by your choices? (And, following your logic, also unreliable?) I'm a member of the church, but I don't like how you slight Deanna's opinion because she's not. None of us are immune from personal bias. Also, she has every right to enter into this debate.
But, she was not right to call Pres Benson all those things. She probably got offended or didn't agree with some doctrine or something. I agree with Anon 3:20. GO BACK TO CHURCH YOU IDIOT!
i approve of this statement. I don't know why people thinks its offensive to hear that nurturing is the primary role of mothers. Its a blessing. A gift. something to be cherished. and i love that quote from president Benson... i quoted it on my blog a few weeks ago :) Its not that women can't be successful in the work place... its not about good enough or smart enough or strong enough.
I haven't read your blog since your stupid confusing April Fools thing.
But I couldn't help it since you post on your facebook whenever you make a new post. Thanks.
Anyway, I <3 this. Seriously. How awesome are you?
Ugh. 1. Natalie Hill beat you to this debate, where she and all the Mormon mommies got offended by the Mormon feminists and started calling each other names (because as Nikki points out, women are enemies, it's sad).
2. You're like my friend Amanda, a 14 year old. You'll do and say anything to get a reaction and attention.
3. Dictionary.com's definition of misogynist is a very narrow one. You [both] have displayed misogynist behavior in your lack of respect for some women.
4. Nikki: not all of us feminists haven't studied feminist theory. Post-modern feminism, and particularly Africanamerican feminism, present ideas that are actually quite conducive to church principles.
5. I'm so glad Mormon culture has the right to tell me what to do in my home. God's plan is unique for each individual. Learn to respect that.
6. ETB, although a Prophet of God (and I respect and sustain that office), was in the Apostleship during a very conservative time in American Christianity.
7. My mom stayed at home but my dad was and is a better nurturer than she'll ever be. Doesn't make either of them bad, but it does mean that men have important roles to play and engendering godly attributes limits potential.
"I'm not going to bother going through all of the exceptions to the Church's policy."
You must mean your interpretation of the church's policy.
In his “Daughters of God” talk in April 2008 conference, Elder Ballard said,
"The choice is different and unique for each mother and each family. Many are able to be “full-time moms,” at least during the most formative years of their children’s lives, and many others would like to be. Some may have to work part-or full-time; some may work at home; some may divide their lives into periods of home and family and work. What matters is that a mother loves her children deeply and, in keeping with the devotion she has for God and her husband, prioritizes them above all else."
"I'm not going to bother going through all of the exceptions to the Church's policy."
You must mean your interpretation of the church's policy.
My husband says that any man who expects his wife to work outside the home should be horse-whipped. Obviously there can be circumstances that would make it so that a mother can't stay home. I used to be a single mom. I HAD to work. But it wasn't an ideal situation. Now my husband works two jobs so I can stay home with our girls. He's kinda awesome like that.
I was thinking about that past post this morning. My brother has had a difficult time finding a girl with the same goals in raising a family. His list is identical with your list, Calvin. Also, everything you said in that post and this one is exactly what my dad told us a worthy young man would expect from his wife.
In the same breath the question he would ask any prospective young men would be: are you prepared to support my daughter in the manner in which she was raised?
More young men need to step up and say I will support you financially and in your role as a mother.
married chick
I wouldn't go as far as to say you're a Misogynist. But your "Deal-Breakers" post is a little disrespectful. You pretty much say that any woman who doesn't agree with what you think a woman should be is either a Bitch or a Lesbian. I can see where that could offend a few people.
My patriarchal blessing does actually mention my career as well as being a mother, I won't go in to detail but I have good reason to believe I will and can do both successfully.
I'm more of a lurker and not a commenter (shame on me, I know). But as a stay at home mom, of 1, with a part time job on the weekends I was happy to read your post.
I can honestly say that Thursday, Friday and Saturday are the days I dread most in my week, because I'd rather be home doing my mommy job and taking care of the house. But that's just me, and being a mommy/wife was all I ever wanted to be when I grew up.
So here's to staying home if you can :)
and I don't have a car, or cable, or normal tv either for that matter. So it's all worth the sacrifice... those some days I go a little stir crazy trying to work out getting to the grocery store with a toddler!
As a new reader of this blog, I was curious about this "Deal-Breaker" post, so I went back and read it.
If you honestly don't think you are misogynistic in any way, go back and read that post. This is why Mormon culture (not doctrine or gospel, but CULTURE) disgusts me. It gives men like you an excuse to have wildly sexist views and justify them with doctrine that was not meant to be used in that context.
You "relish" making fun of girls. You think college is to "keep women busy while you're waiting for me to propose." You consider educated and opinionated women to be "lesbian bitches."
If you actually read the words of the leader of your church, you would see that he delights in the education of women, and that he advises them to get as much education as they possibly can. Not that they should be "keeping themselves busy while waiting for a proposal." Your words reek of sexism, ignorance, and arrogance.
How mature. How educated. What a wonderful candidate for an eternal companion you are.
PS- kissing a smoker is overrated.
I don't really have the time to read all the other comments and I really am suprised at myself for even making a comment cause I am so not into the whole blogging scene and just stumbled upon your blog while looking at another friends blog. But I feel like I need to express myself for 2 seconds. I could not agree with you more that the best thing I will ever do in this life is be a wife and mother. And I am so excited to do that. However, for me personally (and not just because I want a career, but because I feel like heavenly father wants me to do more b/c of my patriarchal blessing and things that I really shouldn't discuss over a blog comment) I feel like it would be a coup out to just say "well forget all that. I am just going to be a mom." I really am probably not expressing myself well, but I think sometimes people just need to be a little bit more open minded about things. Both sides judge- the working mothers and the stay at home moms and that is not what the church teaches. Every situation is different and sometimes it is difficult to put a "one size fits all" especially in the world that we live. I agree with president Benson quote and I am a very strong LDS church member, but you also have to realize that the dynamics of society are constantly changing and the world is changing. I want to contribute in EVERY way possible that I can in this life and have no regrets. I also don't want to neglect my family. I know that it is tricky business and ultimately I want to do what Heavenly Father wants me to do. But I just feel like it is wrong to tell someone they are somehow sinning because they want a career in addition to a family. That's all. You will never hear from me again. I bet you're glad about that. PEACE
Thank you. Not only are families failing, but we are delving ourselves more and more into the excesses of our times, not unlike some former civilizations that were severely punished for their greed. I think people fail to realize that these relevancies are directly related and you illustrated that point beautifully. Women, help raise a generation that can be better than our own and men, allow your wives to also be good mothers by providing for your families. Live simple and live happy. I am so grateful that I have a loving example of both in my life.
However, I do believe that education is also a foundation and even a principle of the LDS faith. I do believe there is actually an old Seminary video from the 90's about a girl contemplating going to college and is strongly encouraged to further her education. Aren't we taught that knowledge is one of the few "possessions" we will take with us to heaven? Why, in today's time of endless resources and vast technology, would you encourage your eternal companion to hinder her growth and spirituality binding her to salvation lower than you? Intelligent, driven, educated women are still able to be faithful, benevolent, kind and charitable, and in my opinion better mothers.
-Proud of my homemaker/college graduate mother.
three fist pumps in the air for you calvin. this post made my day. :D
I still work... and I am a mom... both at home. I am a preschool teacher (for 6 hours a week WITH my kids) and would love to be a Principal some day. Probably when my hubby retires so that we don't have to be in the home ALL day together. He's not my son... ;) But it's not my season to work outside the home and we are doing fine without it. MY opinion is that no one else should raise YOUR kids. They are YOUR kids. If you can live without. Do. If you have to work. Do. But try not to. The best thing I did for my kids was finish school.
I hope your wife appreciates that you will do everything you can so that she can stay home with your children and so she can take your kids to playgroups, shopping, park hopping, etc.
Aren't you, like 25 and not married? Get crackin! ;) haha
Good post. I know exactly how you feel. It's not easy to find a girl who wants to be a stay at home mom.
To those of you getting after Calvin for his "chauvinism" or assuming that he's trying to poke at those who choose other paths, that's not what I see. What I see is the frustration that I experienced quite a bit when I was dating.
I wasn't trying to convince girls to be full-time stay at home mothers, but I was trying to find someone who already wanted that for herself. I knew there were many great mothers who worked, but I wanted to find a girl who wanted - whole-heartedly desired, to be a stay at home mom.
So when I would go out with a great girl, and I'd learn that she intended to pursue a vigorous medical career, I would have to decide how important that preference was for me. Ultimately, I decided that it was VERY important to me. I was excited to be an active, involved, fully participating Dad, but I wanted a mother for those children who could be there for them all day.
It got frustrating when girl after girl expressed career plans that would require constant day-care and babysitters. I didn't want that kind of life for my kids.
My Mom did that for us, and it was possibly the single best thing she has done for us.
Don't get too discouraged, Calvin, they're out there and they're looking for you!
Chas
ps. Sorry, but the best one is taken now. Maybe you'll find the second best. Good luck!
:D
Not going to read through all the comments because I just want to catch up !!But I had to stop and say I am so in love with this post! Yes, I am a SAHM snob. I take a weird pride in not having many luxuries that others who work do. At times I am also jealous of them and those luxuries, but I have to say that being with my kids make up for it. So thankful I can stay at home. I made it very clear to my then -getting- serious -future -hubs that as soon as we had a child I was staying home. Now, for the record, I did help out w/ the hubs and his dad's business at time and for short periods, but overall I have been there for all of my children growing up and will continue to be. I really try to not be judgemental because everyone has such different circumstances. And usually the second I judge the truth gets shoved right back in my shamed face.
p.s. I just know I am missing out on some awesome comments and laughs! NATCH!
You may use whatever religious dogma you like to justify your primitive, antiquated belief system but it only demonstrates how inherently asinine and deeply chauvinistic Mormonism is rather than serve as an excuse for your obvious misogyny. Still want to deny this (accurate) description? Well, allow me to quote you "... find yourself a lesbian lover and make piles of dosh while complaining about overpopulation and global warming YOU SELFISH BITCH." (emphasis mine) So, a woman who doesn't want to have children is automatically a.) a lesbian, b.) selfish and c.) a bitch! You know, men like you with tiny little penises, no ambition and no self-confidence (sexually anyway--you're threatened by a girl who enjoys dancing in nightclubs? Can you say insecure? Are you a virgin!? Because that sounds like a man who's freakishly self-conscious about his sexual prowess (or lack thereof). I suspect you're probably gay. Which is totally okay. But don't get some poor girl to be your beard and marry you and have 10 of your babies so that you can run around behind her back having sex in airport bathrooms. Have the courage to be who you really are and stop blogging about bullshit things you clearly know nothing about (i.e.: women)
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